three things to consider for the Berget Crew.

Feedback e debriefings from Berget 7.
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Murrdohk
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Post by Murrdohk » 30 Jun 2009, 23:05

I can see why a lot of people got so pissed off about some of the things that happened at Berget and motörhead is right...this was more of a milsim game as opposed to a speedballer. It's also damn shamnable that NATO as a whole are being viewed so poorly just because of the actions of a few individuals or groups that went rougue during the event.

I'm very proud to say that the all Norwegian(+1 American) platoon Oscar 1 ALpha did their missions to the best of their abilities and got the job done. This wasn't always fun of course and we didn't see much action overall but in sticking to our designated missions and objectives, we adhered to the ROE and have the satisfaction of knowing that we got the job done.

In hindsight, I think that an in-game investigation could have been organized and certain individuals or groups that broke the ROE should have been detained or punished in some way. Maybe the people at Berget should consider this for furture events to try and prevent this from happening again in the future...at least on such a large scale as what happened this year.

Depending on the severity of the crime commited, maybe an in-game court marshal system and possible death by firing squad might even keep a few people from doing this stuff again. :P
B7 - NATO Oscar 1 Alpha Infantry / Medic
B8 - Civilian Medic / Poldavion 3rd Mountaineers Echo Company
B9 - Poldavion 3rd Mountaineers 5th Platoon/Delta Squad Medic

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Post by FallenGuard » 30 Jun 2009, 23:15

Murrdohk wrote: Depending on the severity of the crime commited, maybe an in-game court marshal system and possible death by firing squad might even keep a few people from doing this stuff again. :P
And the severity of the "crime" then defines the distance/fps of the weapons the firing squad uses? :lol:

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Post by Panzergraf » 30 Jun 2009, 23:36

Or how long their spawn period will be ;)

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Post by mrklimkin » 30 Jun 2009, 23:43

or processed and locked in jail for long time, or used for clean the wc ...
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Post by Beckett » 01 Jul 2009, 00:37

Os wrote:
motörhead wrote:
Os wrote:2. Ppl are kinda angry aboute the nato not doing what they were suppose to do in bashir. Hmmm wy didnt they do so? maby its because the game wasnt so good planed? Maby berget should consider that the game wasnt good planed? For my part i fell like I was the prop for the 20% of the players that love rp.
There are some easy solutions:
-If one gets bored by lack of action, first ensure you got a radio for the relevant tasks ahead. Squad com won't do for COY or Bn OPS.

1. Ask chain-of-command for special missions, basecamp defense duty or patrol duty.

2. Plan your own alternative missions and forward to relevant ingame officer for approval-

3. Ensure that your proposals are within the ingame NATO mand
I hear what you say but then I would get a misson that didnt have any purpuse. Its so stupid when someone from co comes iside our ten one day and says: if you wana have action get up cos 70 milos are wathing outside the base to attack 1 min over 9. And we got up and nothing happend.
Here I agree 100%. Was asking my supperiors for some real action in big battles for my guys (and I was asking it for 2 whole days) and we got was 1 recon-harassing ORC mission and no extraction (I know that I was not promissed one 100%) - India 4 was on field almost all the time for straight 3 days - we are proud of that ;). So all action the guys had was when I was not acting on rules or when given free hand by our CO.
Well that's for now.. have to get some more sleep. Details and detailed debrief in future posts.

1st edit - added info to clarify
2nd edit - spelling
Last edited by Beckett on 01 Jul 2009, 01:18, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Os » 01 Jul 2009, 00:49

jdoe wrote:To Os.

:?

Are you for real!!??
Sorry please quote me post so i can answer you :D

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Post by Os » 01 Jul 2009, 01:07

Seraph wrote:I think a lot of people should stay at home and attend regular weekend speedball games instead of trying to criticize attempts to improve Berget events by steering it towards more structured and rewarding milsim.
§1.7
Berget games are not MILSIM, but they are airsoft action games with some elements of milsim and LARP.

Whit that in mind i must say I can play milsim but ony whit a purpose! :D

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Post by MrMedic » 01 Jul 2009, 01:28

Could we please keep this thread focused on constructive feedback to Berget Events?
The Good Guys Nato/Rogue Nato/Bored Nato discussion is both interesting and necessary, but could you please take it in another thread?

This being said, this is the feedback I would like to have Berget Crew take into consideration for next year:

1 ) Transport points system: Good! Huge improvement over dedicated team vehicles. May not be fast, may not be reliable, but it sure beats having no vehicles at all.

2 ) Map: please mark all off-game areas CLEARLY before game start. The road in Column A that was taken off-game in the middle of the game cost my company almost half a day of gameplay. (I agree that the road should be off-game, no issue there, but next year mark it beforehand). Also if people get stranded in off-game areas due to decision from BE then please use whatever means necessary to get them back into the game asap. 2½ hours for refueling a TGB truck seems a bit long. Use other vehicles or whatever.

3 ) Base locations: Particular the SRP base, pretty much impossible to assault by vehicle since it was surrounded by off-game areas and/or roads. From what I understand they actually had to go off-game about 50m from the entrance to their camp in any direction if they went by road. Overall that base location is too close to the off-game houses in the vicinity for my personal taste. Some SRP guys who performed a very good flanking maneuver when we attacked their base had to return to base since they attacked more or less through someones garden. Not their fault, and had the base been situated differently this would never have occured, I'm sure.

4 ) Armband colors: Red vs Red-Gray was messed up for the first 24h before we formed an alliance. In retrospect it was quite obvious that you had planned the alliance for quite a while, still would be nice to be able to separate the forces.

5 ) Hamburger stand in base: Super! Best improvement ever! Please keep this for next year!

6 ) Missions: I can only speak for Mercs but there seemed to be more and better missions this year than last. Several of these mission we had to try over and over to succeed with, which was really nice. Working on the same mission for 24h is better suited for this type of game than hit-and run missions imho. Good job BE!

7 ) Ending of the game: From the info page here at the website:
Game start: 22:00 CET Wednesday the 24th
Game ends: 20:00 CET Saturday the 27th.
So why terminate the game at 14:00? Thats 6 hours of prime gametime you just threw away. I have been looking forward to this event for a whole year, and I don't want to miss a single minute of it! Next time, please let us play up until the very last minute.

8 ) Strategic points: Good idea, can be made even better. The idea that you can keep fighting between 0300 an 0900 if you chose to do so is very appealing. Maybe the SP's can generate money or 1 artillery strike per hour or something useful so that it really pays to be out there holding them. A lot of missions were focused on getting things, people or info from enemy bases so they sort of went dead between 0300 and 0900. Please try to make the distance between the bases and the nearest SP a bit more balanced though, as it was now Milos base was the easiest to attack since if you had the bunker you could respawn just down the road, not so with the other bases.

9 ) Helicopter: Never saw it ingame, didn't really miss it. I only hope you didn't spend too much money on it. I think it would be better to spend money on more transport vehicles, Bashir City or perhaps more artillery strikes instead, those really added to the game.

10 ) Armbands (again...), Patches etc: I think it would be a good idea if you provided the armbands and let people write their number in felt pen at check-in. I saw some very "creative" shades of the team colors and the variations on how wide 11cm really is would make my physics teacher spin in his grave. Also team patches are IMPORTANT! this is the largest international event in the world, we want to be able to trade patches and we want to be able to add our team patches to our "I was there" trophy-collections. If you do not want to / Do not have the time to make the patches then fine BUT LET US KNOW! What you did this year was... less than impressing.


And thats about it.

Overall B7 was an impressively well run game, and I had a lot of fun attending it.

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Post by Seraph » 01 Jul 2009, 01:36

Os wrote:§1.7
Berget games are not MILSIM, but they are airsoft action games with some elements of milsim and LARP.

Whit that in mind i must say I can play milsim but ony whit a purpose! :D

I'm quite aware of the current Berget rules, but what me and many others are trying to do is to argue in favor of shifting the focus of the event toward a more milsim-like experience. And I do believe that all players, both those interested in all out RP and purely action-oriented players such as yourself can benefit from it. Seems like you too have realised that ;)

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Post by Os » 01 Jul 2009, 01:40

Seraph wrote:
Os wrote:§1.7
Berget games are not MILSIM, but they are airsoft action games with some elements of milsim and LARP.

Whit that in mind i must say I can play milsim but ony whit a purpose! :D

I'm quite aware of the current Berget rules, but what me and many others are trying to do is to argue in favor of shifting the focus of the event toward a more milsim-like experience. And I do believe that all players, both those interested in all out RP and purely action-oriented players such as yourself can benefit from it. Seems like you too have realised that ;)
Im glad that we understand each other :) I never whanted to stop youre way of AS game just so i can have my AS game.
I just beleve that berget 7 wasnt balanced for both gamers. :D

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...

Post by 55nilsson » 01 Jul 2009, 01:48

I played NATO so this is mainly from the NATO-base...

1. The toiletts, well if you can call them that... Did whoever build them try them out??? Don´t think so. The seat was about 30 to 40 cm to high, and you had to jump up on the seat, and sit on a non-treated wooden seat, which after a day was anything but sanitary.
And for God sake, don´t make the door from tarp, that can´t be locked.

2. Running water... Please put more than 1 sink in a base with almost 450 players, or atleast put up a sign that says "No washing or doing dishes in the sink, just fill your bottle or camelback and get the Hell out of the way"

3. Patches...Don´t say that you will provide them if you can´t, and if you can, make sure - The hard part of velcro go on the patch , the soft part go on the clothes!!! Not the other way around!! :evil:

4. The helicopter...Don´t use it again and correct the above instead!

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Re: three things to consider for the Berget Crew.

Post by Tunkis » 01 Jul 2009, 02:14

two: NATO-players need to be thouroughly informed about what the hell NATO is all about and what their ingame "mission" is. One thing is for sure it's not to massacre civilians (in churches on top of everything), plunder and execute their prisoners!

the strange thing is that the supposed toles ingame was completely reverted, NATO was the "bad guys" that killed, maimed, plundered and murdered whilst it was the drugies, mercs and criminals who acctually tried to protect the "innocent".

this fucked up allot of the ingame feeling.
I agree, as a NATO player I was informed of our role as peace keepers and our job with securing the city for the civilians best. But I didn´t receive ONE order that had anything to do with that and that could be because of the fact that the NATO wasn´t greeted by the LARP civilians as a relief force, instead we where almost hated and therefore our designated role was ruined. This lead to the fact that many of our missions where "go there (takes about 3 hours) and after taking your objective go home". This lead to that some NATO players went rouge to find some action, and thats because this is a AIRSOFT game NOT MILSIM and went out and did things like that.

So the LARP part of our missions (for NATO atleast) could have been given more thought into. A example for this is a food convoy mission, there would have been a great idea that once or twice a day a convoy of supplies would be sent into Bashir and with NATO protecting it. That would have been a fun mission, with action and also being a mission that fit into our mission description. See it as a tip for future berget from a NATO soldier. [/quote]
B7: NATO; Bravo 2&3 Soldier

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Post by motorhead » 01 Jul 2009, 03:09

Murrdohk wrote: In hindsight, I think that an in-game investigation could have been organized and certain individuals or groups that broke the ROE should have been detained or punished in some way. Maybe the people at Berget should consider this for furture events to try and prevent this from happening again in the future...at least on such a large scale as what happened this year.

Depending on the severity of the crime commited, maybe an in-game court marshal system and possible death by firing squad might even keep a few people from doing this stuff again. :P
Funny. I was thinking the very same thoughts. Must...resist...doh.
At least we need some regulatory kind of punishment system from Berget-Events with real ingame concequences for the culprits - since ingame commanders have no real authority when things go haywire like this year.
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B6: NATO, Oscar COY, 3rd PLT, 3rd squad
B7: NATO S6 - smoke signal operator
B8: Pol. 3rd Mount. S6/Liaison - ditto
B9: Pol. 3rd Mount. Com dude - ditto
B10: On leave
B11: Hot Dog

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Post by Kamikaze » 01 Jul 2009, 04:17

Okey first of all don't get me wrong on the NATO thing, I know most behaved correctly however some didn't and this completely screwed up the game-atmosphere.

First of all people should at least have the decense, common knowledge and respect for other players to know what NATO is about, and so consequently they shouldn't --- SPAM !!! --- up innocent people, it just so basic.

and as for the milsim not milsim discussion, if you chose to call one side NATO then damn it they should act like it.

Most behaved some didn't (did I hear anybody say italianos?) Fucked up the whole feeling.

secondly Berget should really make sure that there are clear objectives and already done missions to be handed out to the commanders.

"my" commander didn't do much of anything, planing was at best none-existent and nobody seemed to know what was going on. The few big "Strikes" at enemy bases that was ever drawn up, were mostly ill planed and also called off leaving a whole bunch of people geared up and assembled for nothing more than the usuall "attack and secure the bunker" which was pretty much the only thing done by command, over and over again.

Furthermore NATO didn't seem to know that they should burn Milos Poppy fields as they rolled in with some hundred guys against 15 milos (the rest was out on a idiotic assault on SRP the only attack that seemed to have been planned and acctually carried out) after pretty much fucking the place up they simple backed out leaving the poopy-fields intact (to the best of my knowledge)

So the commanders have to be given clear objectives and missions ala:
A: locate poppy-fields
B: burn poppy-fields
C: Find milos basecamp
D: sieze and hold controll of bunker outside milos basecamp to effectively limit there possiblity to participate in the armed conflict (this objective would of course be given to the NATO command once they had first found the milo basecamp
E: bring in foodconvoys to Bashir city
F: organize checkpoints to hinder enemy movement

and so on and so forth, commanders can then simply hand these tasks out to the appropriate group of their choosing. Furthermore players should be allowed to come with ideas for missions to their commanders for approval.

Also it should be made damn clear that NATO gameplay is more structured and rigid, If you don't want that then don't join NATO.

Milos for example were a bunch of Druggy, mercnary, criminal no-gooders and if they didn't like their commander they could just say --- SPAM !!! --- you haven't payed us and we've gotten no drugs n so on so were outa here and this would still be within the Milo gameplay.

Berget event Needs to become more clear on all points.

Why are you (the player) here.
What is your main objective, that which should guide all your actions ingame.
What is your team supposed to do, what sub-objectives do you have to accomplish.
What are the safety rules.
etc.

Berget should be an event aka an experience not a trigger-happy shoot out that runs for three days. To me it wasn't about how many enemies I shoot it was about meeting people, going on roadtrips and sneaking through the forest either on a recon mission or on a sneak-attack on some unsuspecting CIA poofs ;) And of course beeing in character.

I was a mercenary criminal taking orders from no-one unless it suited my own aims or I got hansomly paid, command did not satisfy any of those criteria so I said screw em. Hell I only attacked the CIA to get at all their cash n loot they were bound to have stashed somewere.

Did I ruin it for the rest of the team? maybe I dunno, but I find that I was within the bounds of the gameplay storyline and they should have done so too or simply ousted the commander (the idea was discussed).

NATO is a diffrent thing though because they aren't in the game, so to speak, for personal gain and so they can't really justify going awol.

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Post by Vanguard » 01 Jul 2009, 10:20

Well, one thing that screwed with NATO - Civilian relations from "the start" was when a whole platoon or something (large force) was extracting from a checkpoint in the first night just by Bashir City. At one point 2 civilians went by and talked a little with som NATO guys in passing, but when the NATO forces continued their withdrawal they were mowed down from behind by these 2 civies!

So, if NATO is suposed to have this less action oriented/more defensive role of play (ie peacekeeping), with all the high expectations and responsibility that brings to the individual player, then the people whom we interact with (be they civies or Mercs or whatever) need to play their part aswell!

From that day on, all of the guys on my team just flat out decided that in the future (the coming days) they would never turn their backs to any civies and rather shoot them than risk anything els, which is of course "wrong" or "bad" from a game point of view.
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