Ingame mandates and airsoft player ethics.

Feedback e debriefings from Berget 7.
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Rhyn0
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Post by Rhyn0 » 01 Jul 2009, 14:40

We in Milo's also felt Favoritism show it's ugly head.
By the end of second day, 2nd and 3rd companies were close to mutiny, because of the way assignments were handed out.
There was also very bad manners towards some natinalities, and harsh words that a commander should NEVER speak to his troops, especialy when they come to him calmly looking for a solution to their problems.

It worked out in the end, but it almost went VERY wrong for a moment there.
If not for the big NATO attack on the bunker on the second night(??) which finally put 3rd Co in the middle of the action, i feared Milo's would have ended with a bang the next morning.

And Robman, think that some people didn't bother getting up in the morning just to walk up to HQ tent and be told: "your company has Latrine guard duty( roadblock) again", or "your company will attack and defend the bunker all day", or because they stayed up till 5-6 am harrasing the enemy at the bunker and other key positions, making their OWN fun that was NOT provided by HQ, or at least not provided for us.. i'm sure India CO didnt lack missions.. did they?
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Kaiser
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Post by Kaiser » 01 Jul 2009, 17:42

Hmmm... guessing i am seeing a lot of hero wannabees, commanders and stuff (hey this is my oppinion, and if you don't like it, well, sorry but it's mine, and Spof already heard it)

First of all, this is a game, milsimers or skirmishers, those who you are calling speedballers to separate the "gamestyles" in airsoft, and that is not correct... i saw some milsimers not taking hits, has i saw speedballers accepting them.

The problem is that some of you are calling upon yourselves the "true meaning of airsoft", like you are "THE JESUS CHRIST OF AIRSOFT".

Have you forgotten what airsoft is all about?

Companionship, despite the type of roleplaying you have chosen?
Having fun, despite of the milsim reenactment you are taking?

This is not a "model-of-the-world" runway, but if you want it to be, i wont criticise you... it's your own taste.

You want to reenact NATO, MERCS, SEPARATISTS, AND WHATEVER MILO'S ARE... but you forget that every single human being has its own way of thinking.

Are you dumb for choosing to go rogue on NATO and sell info? Nope, you are roleplaying, having fun in being a bad guy for that time, and you have the consciousness that you have to avoid being caught by the guys that you (sort of) betrayed.

You are not betraying them in real life, in life-or-death situations, cause if you get hit, you only have to walk about 2 or 3 kms to the nearest respawn point, not really bleed to death and get hurt for real.

IT'S AIRSOFT, military and police reeactment, not real time police or military duty.

Second, i choose to follow a order because that order is right, no one is obligated to follow orders just because they are orders, and my professional life is taking orders.

We have a saying that is used even amongst Generals " A Bad order is not to be complied!".

Third...

This is not medieval times.

no one from NATO committed treason, only committed acts of war crimes, and those are punished with jail time, or exclusion from the outfit.

In all of the Constitutions says " The Human Life is the most valuable asset in history, and it can never be put to harm without the culprit being punished" or something like that, so the Countries that use this type of phylosophy won't comitt a inconstitucional act.

Second of all, i alert to all players that want action, instead of going Roque, to chose a side that is more prone to "violence" and "acts of terror" instead of choosing a peace-keeping, law-obbiding side like NATO (Well Nato has its own problems in his ranks).

I would find it funny as hell to be court martialled if i have done something wrong that went against NATO rules, but the punishment should be, being transfered to MERC side, or Milo's in order to avenge the punishment by NATO, not being expelled from the game, because, going against orders is not punished by BE game rules, only by internal ones.

Still continue to say that the worse things that happened were :

- Disregarding others safety by shooting really close and acting stupid like they were right.

- Shooting at non-combatent personnel that were only providing a good roleplay.

- And acting like a role play chosen by other players should be considered as treason, and punished by expulsion for the game.

No one ruined no one's game, everyone enjoyed it, some more, some less...

Best regards, and hope you read my post twice and try to understand others oppinions.

Kaiser
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Post by Brujo » 01 Jul 2009, 18:01

I think every player should give a try with other fraction aswel :)
I tried soviet, NATO, merc... next year SRP? :lol: ÄYRÄPÄÄ!

Seriously, russian friends should play NATO/USMC/SAS next year imo. Why would they be any less capable of playing NATO? What I do know is, they would NOT engage unarmed civilians... and all you weirdos geardos that proudly carry thousands of patches on issue brandnamed gear and scream for maximum aggression... try it once in a light overall with a few mags in your pockets and with the freedom of a mercenary. You will like it, I guarantee you. :)
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Post by Kaiser » 01 Jul 2009, 18:02

Brujo wrote:I think every player should give a try with other fraction aswel :)
I tried soviet, NATO, merc... next year SRP? :lol: ÄYRÄPÄÄ!

Seriously, russian friends should play NATO/USMC/SAS next year imo. Why would they be any less capable of playing NATO? What I do know is, they would NOT engage unarmed civilians... and all you weirdos geardos that proudly carry thousands of patches on issue brandnamed gear and scream for maximum aggression... try it once in a light overall with a few mags in your pockets and with the freedom of a mercenary. You will like it, I guarantee you. :)

Damn right!
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Post by motorhead » 01 Jul 2009, 18:06

Kaiser wrote: IT'S AIRSOFT, military and police reeactment, not real time police or military duty.
That's the name of the game, but in the end there are ingame roles also connected to true units - like in this case NATO. So to put it mildly, I don't think mr. Beckett's roleplay did much good for the roleplay of a plausible NATO unit.
Kaiser wrote: No one ruined no one's game, everyone enjoyed it, some more, some less...
That's an opinion to be discussed. If one replicates certain units with a political mandate - in this case where the task is to protect Bashir civilians - going awol, ransacking a priest and trying to blow up the casino is not exactly the way to fullfill that mandate.

But the weather was hot, airsofters get bored and shit happens.
There's however a big difference of having a B-movie script versus having a good movie with good actors.
Kaiser wrote: Best regards, and hope you read my post twice and try to understand others oppinions.
I read it twice. And agree to most of it, but again - we have different tastes concerning roleplay, and in future I feel Berget must balance the different player types better before game begins.

For example:
If you wanna play gangster-style and be a dodgy dealer etc: join Milos or Orlov etc. Easy as that.

If you wanna play milsim - go ingame NATO and stick to that exact role, be an airsoft soldier within a mil setup and unit operation.

An ingame punishment system would also in the future improve true roleplay for the milsimmers among us at Berget. There must be some roleplayed consequences if one steps so totally out of the line as it did this year.

Think about it: What do you think would happen if such insubordination took place in a real NATO unit with the mandate to protect civilians?
That should also be simulated in some way or another in future Berget games IMHO.

If not the B- or C-movie script comes to my mind again. And that sucks big time :D
Last edited by motorhead on 01 Jul 2009, 18:12, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Tiger_1 » 01 Jul 2009, 18:07

I am not actually sure if I did get what you were talking about, even if I did read it twice..
If you have a game, with factions, that have set goals. And someone just for his own personal fun does not follow the orders and plans for his side, just wanders off and does his own thing..
Are we all to just say "ok, thats fine, it's a game"? Becouse then we might just as well gather 1200 airsofters on a field, splitt them in 2, and have a straight fire fight. I am sure a lot of people would find that fun. I would not, at least not for 3 days...
Berget gives in the text for each faction a reasonabel insight into the type of missions you will get, and the style of play. If that is not what you want to do, dont pick that side. Or even better, dont come to berget. Beocuse it is NOT "a free for all shoot everthing I like when i get bored!" game. And if people cant see that, by going off and doing their own thing, contrary to the missions of their faction spoiles the game for the LARGE nr of people that stay in caracter and actualy want to play that faction. Then I feel sorry for them.
And yes, it is just a game. A game I paid as much for as them, so who gives them the right to mess it up for me, just becouse they cant stay in caracter for 3 days out of their life?
It has nothing to do with the right or wrong way to play airsoft. It has to do with people putting their personal fun above the fellings and rights of others.
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Post by Kaiser » 01 Jul 2009, 18:27

To tiger and motorhead.

Has i was saying, despite acting as rogues, the only thing to do to them is Court Martial them and expell them from NATO, once it's not their type of roleplaying, and prefer to be the "Bad Guys".

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Re: Ingame mandates and airsoft player ethics.

Post by motorhead » 01 Jul 2009, 18:46

Beckett wrote: 1st:
I'm playing a GAME with stretchy rules. I wanted to expand my experience and I am very thankful to everyone involved. PLEASE, don't take this SO EMOTIONALY! It's only a game.
If you want to take it on a philosophical level:
MY BELIVE is:
PEACE cannot be reached through weapons, violence, force, NATO. It can be reached through openess, love, dialogue and letting go of the past conflicts totally by all sides.
So for me, NATO policy in real life is "bullsh1t". I see them as state mercs, with some key people in their structure getting filthy rich (since war is all about that - money for destruction, than money to rebuild and making that region ecconomicaly dependent on IMF). All other stuff and NATO policy is just a NICE bed time story - if you belive it, ql, but it's so far away from reality.
There are a lot proven accusations for nato solders selling nato weapons, dealing drugs, etc.
My sister works as part of NATO force and her husband is military international law lawyer - I know what I am saying :P
This was interesting knowledge, but what about us naive Norsemen not sharing that view or having had that experience with our known NATO-folks? I have relatives actually working for NATO and I've served in the UN in Lebanon for a year and simply haven't seen any of that shit yet.

My point is that an ingame airsoft NATO unit got its objectives, mandate and goals in the Berget-7 rules and storyline. and you - an ingame NATO soldier wander off on your own and pesters civilians without authorization from us at HQ. So basically you portrayed a war-criminal with ingame NATO armband and destroyed our mandate and relations to the ingame civilians. That's bordering to total selfishness and not in line with your game character as ingame NATO soldier.
Beckett wrote: I have explained myself. This is my perspective and I respect all other opinions, perspectives and comment. Thanks.
Well, thanks for sharing. But I'm afraid you seem to lack the maturity and insight to see the consequences of your actions within the context of this airsoft game. You actually messed up the storyline big time and made the ingame NATO roleplay insanely unrealistic.

It's true that it's just a game, and you and a few other players messed it up royally. If you come back - choose another roleplay fraction.
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Post by Brujo » 01 Jul 2009, 19:07

Motorhead, he was not an isolated case, he just spoke up. There were others that did the same. Go ahead and make an example out of it but please do generalise to others aswel.

And may I also confess that it was me who influenced Beckett and informed him about the priest. But then, it was in my in-game interest to mock NATO. Was I aware I would spoil the game to others aswel? No and neither was Beckett.
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Post by Lesjak » 01 Jul 2009, 20:02

If an unit went rogue then it should be brought to court marshal. If you wanna play MILSIM then you must be provided with MILSIM. We don't want some screwup half milsim half LARP. There was no such Milsim in NATO. Neither was there any LARP in nato. Read the description of what Berget is. It's not a Milsim, nor a solely LARP event.
So nobody is in a position to tell that NATO is all Milsim. If you wanted to play Milsim, then you could've played Milsim. Same goes with Larp. So why not playing a bit both? Especially in Bashir City, where there are LARPs all over again.
I was in India 4 Squad and we played LARP that time in Bashir. We didnt kill anyone, we weren't arrested by the police, we didnt engage the police. If we had done something wrong or blew someone's game, then it's up to the Civilians and LARPs to decide.
Brujo wrote:Motorhead, he was not an isolated case, he just spoke up. There were others that did the same. Go ahead and make an example out of it but please do generalise to others aswel.

And may I also confess that it was me who influenced Beckett and informed him about the priest. But then, it was in my in-game interest to mock NATO. Was I aware I would spoil the game to others aswel? No and neither was Beckett.
If a person makes an open discussion about the wrong doing of NATO, why does he points his finger to one squad who has done the least damage? Ask a civilian if a squad came in to Bashir and opened fire, yes OPENED FIRE and started to kill those 10 policemen?
I cannot point a finger and tell that from what I've heard or QUOTE somebody and then pass judgement upon them, like some people did. We will post the actual Movie of the heist in bashir and you will see that there was nothing corrupted about it.
As many people said before, Airsoft is a game. We just played some MILSIM and some LARP and that's it.

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Post by Os » 01 Jul 2009, 20:04

Hey motorhead read this :
§1.7
Berget games are not MILSIM, but they are airsoft action games with some elements of milsim and LARP.

I know you "hate" speedball players but i think its so silly that you nag aboute ppl didnt do what nato is supose to do and you whant a punish system like in real life for those who doesnt do what you like.

If this is going to work you hafto live whit both rp mislim and action players. Hey its almoust realistic that some players whent rouge and did "bad things" . Isnt that what we read aboute in the news all the time? :)

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Post by Tystnad » 01 Jul 2009, 20:30

So in other words, you should be allowed to do "your own thing" because youre an actionplayer and dont like to play the role you signed up for?
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Post by Brujo » 01 Jul 2009, 20:37

Relations of each fraction towards other fractions should be in the rules. This would create a mandatory behaviour pattern needed for propper plot.

Everyone going out of the bubble would be just a plain cheater then and we would not need epic discussions like we have now.
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Post by Os » 01 Jul 2009, 20:37

Tystnad wrote:So in other words, you should be allowed to do "your own thing" because youre an actionplayer and dont like to play the role you signed up for?
No I dont think so. What im saying is this game was obviously not made for all sort of players.
§1.7
Berget games are not MILSIM, but they are airsoft action games with some elements of milsim and LARP.

This year I was more like a milsim and larp game whit some elements of action games.

If next year its a milsim game if will still come and play but I wouldnt complayne aboute it being to much milsim and little action. :)

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Post by wormbyte » 01 Jul 2009, 20:58

In my personal opinion I would say that the event as a whole should be neither MilSim or LARP.

However, as I have said before, I think the factions should be. I can only speak for NATO, but from what I can see, NATO is too wide open for many different types of players.

No game could possibly cater for such diversity and as such players will be dissapointed.

As an organiser, if some can explain to me how to have 500+ players from all different styles all being kept satisfied at an event then please let me know, because I will be all ears.
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