How did the camo restriction work?

Feedback e debriefings from Berget 8.

Did you think that OD and Desert restriction worked?

Yes it was much more less friendly fire!
Yes but skip the armband for next year!
No, it was not good.
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Post by Panzergraf » 21 Jun 2010, 23:50

This isn't a tournament, "winning" is not the purpose here, so there's no reason it should be completely fair.

There are many patterns on the NAF-approved list that are somewhat suitable for forests, like Multicam.
IMHO, Vegetato should also be a NAF pattern, as it looks a lot like Multicam from a distance, and depending on the make, it might also be browner than MC.

OD VS Camo-patterns is also a good idea, as someone mentioned.
You can fairly easily differentiate between OD and a woodland camouflage pattern from a distance, and both work well in the woods.

Some guy suggested digital VS other patterns, but I'm not keen on the idea, as digital patters only look pixelated up close; from a distance the colors sortof mix together. That's the point.

Eastern VS Western is a choice I like, as it brings a lot of character to the game, but I'm afraid it will be hard to populate the Eastern-side to match the western one.
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Post by J.M.Korhonen » 22 Jun 2010, 00:44

Every contact I had followed a similar pattern: first either sound or sight of movement, then camo, then armband. There were many occasions in the forest where NAF uniforms worked well enough, so that they got a drop on me :).

At these distances, it's the movement that gives you away, not the camo as such. In ranger training, I took part in an exercise where we had to evade search patrols in similar forests while dressed in completely white "snow suits" - it was bit tricky at times, but completely possible.

Nevertheless, perhaps OD/solid colors vs camo might be a better solution than desert vs woodland. I'd be completely happy going against camouflage pattern guys while dressed in OD or solid brown.

Civilians/mercs etc. could then have civilian clothes, like jeans and whatnot.

Nevertheless, keeping the armbands is probably a good idea, since the uniforms and equipment vary so much.

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Post by Junior » 22 Jun 2010, 23:46

Armbands are important but some players didn't make them right (in one case it almost caused a friendly fire), so there are the following options:

1) Berget supplies proper armbands to players with removable ID for using it in the events.
2) Like in the real army, uniform restrictions will be one or two types of uniform for each side.

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Post by vinni » 23 Jun 2010, 02:04

the biggest problem i had with the camo restictions is the fact that once you start relying on that rule-engraved-in-stone that the other side wears another camo (desert in this case), is that after the first drop of rain, they break out the woodland colored raingear and POOF goes the IFF xD
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Post by Stig » 23 Jun 2010, 04:56

Panzergraf wrote:Fair?

Eastern VS Western is a choice I like, as it brings a lot of character to the game, but I'm afraid it will be hard to populate the Eastern-side to match the western one.

You could always just add some more sides though, like: east, west, Sweden.

May not be the most realistic thing, but Swedes could be an eastern ally. That would surely detract a lot from the western side. Or perhaps an European side?

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Post by freno » 24 Jun 2010, 06:10

We should also give PSYOPS possabuillity to change colours/camo to EVERY kind present in the game...

That´s what psyops will do in real life!
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Post by ReconProG » 24 Jun 2010, 09:17

My team played on the side of NAF 3rd Ranger Bn.
The camo restriction worked well in terms of friendly fire at least for us. Apart from some isolated cases of mistaking the Norwegian camo pattern and vegetato for light patterns my team had no trouble with it. However, I voted that the restriction is no good. I'll explain this further down.

We used the BGS Sumpftarn pattern. It's a team camo for 3 years now (it's a shame they stopped producing it). The pattern is very light (just slightly darker than Multicam) and works absolutely perfectly in WL environment (even better than some WL patterns). But that's just us.

The only other reasonable choises for a NAF camo were Multicam and Rooivalk. If I have to stretch things even further and rely on luck - maybe a very dark version of the US chocolate chips camo.

In my opinion the camo restriction wasn't good because it chased people away from the NAF side.
It's all in the way things were presented to the players - as DESERT vs WL patterns. Since most people don't realize the potential of light patterns in WL environments such a presentation causes them to think that camos are divided in the following way:
Desert patterns in WL environment - obviously stupid
WL patterns in WL environment - not stupid
The least to say to support this - not all light patterns work well in the woods. For instance - US 3Color Desert, British desert DPM and so on...
Thus, any rational person would most likely choose the WL-pattern side.
In NAF we also had the Gucci problem - some people were more after looks rather than being after efficiency. I mean choosing a desert pattern instead of multicam or anything similar. I witnessed people buyind desert cammies specifically for this game. As I'm a person persuing efficiency, I can't understand this but that's a different matter.

I'll summarize. The reason the camo restriction didn't work well, according to me, is purely psychological - most people don't like wearing DESERT patterns in WOODLAND environments. It's purely stupid. I guess this is why less people wanted to sign up for the NAF.
If the whole NAF force had been dressed in Multicam/Camogrom or Sumpftarn there wouldn't have been any problems. However, some people don't have (access to) uniforms in these patterns.

My suggestion to fix this problem is to alter the way things are presented. despite my insisting in several threads that the camo division is made on the base of LIGHT vs DARK, people kept quoting BE crew's DESERT vs WL division. So, simply present things in the LIGHT vs DARK way and omit the word "desert". It has a devastating effect over people's minds. especially when they have to wear desert patterns in a woodland environment.
Another suggestion is to add the PCU and uniforms similar to it to the list of uniforms for the LIGHT side. After all, despite the fact that the PCU has no pattern, it is a military uniform and is quite suitable even for WL environments (the grey color has some vey unique properties; I won't go into detail but my team has tested it and it works). Adding the PCU gives people a 4th viable choise for a uniform on the LIGHT side.

As for the armbands - keep them. They're a good way to ID forces from different sides. The only downside I see is the handyap of red armbands - they're visible from miles away. Maybe the division should be green vs blue for the main opposing forces.
I also think that civilians shouldn't wear armbands. It's much enough that they wear civvie clothes. Removing the bands from civies would also add a little bit to the overall feel of realism.

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Post by JKangas » 24 Jun 2010, 12:03

Given the fact that trees and bushes were busy sprouting new leaves, most of the wooded area was very light green in general color. There were times when 1st Coy with traditional darkish woodland pattern stood out as a dark blob against very pale green foliage.

At night, in pine woods, WL did have some advantage over the palest desert-type uniforms (or UCP, blecch). But generally I did not find that NAF side would have stood out excessively. There were large areas of recently cut trees which had dried up grass and straws covering the ground and desert camo blended in just beautifully. Visibility overall was very limited in most wooded areas so it was the movement and sound rather than camo pattern which gave people away.

I felt that generally Multicam was the best match for the environment; even digital desert was not bad either, neither was woodland (traditional and digital). UCP blends well after it has been rolled around in mud and dust to cover the butt-ugly pattern :)

(I almost executed few guards from Gen Rakowski's party after encountering them during a roadside sentry task. Vegetato is light enough to be confused with NAF patterns...)
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Post by Infinity » 24 Jun 2010, 12:59

You knew when you picked a team, that desert cammy's will stand out in woodland terrein, embrace the suck!!!

I'd say, keep the armbands, cause there are going to be alot of mixups otherwise. With a proper armband, you arent leaving things open for interpretation

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Post by jurgen975 » 24 Jun 2010, 17:29

I would say skip the the armband and use one uniform per group or faction.use uniforms that are used in the real world so no multicam.
All these different uniforms give me the impression of a rag tag outfit especially the poldavion site looked more like a rag tag gang
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Post by Stig » 24 Jun 2010, 17:32

ReconProG wrote: I also think that civilians shouldn't wear armbands. It's much enough that they wear civvie clothes. Removing the bands from civies would also add a little bit to the overall feel of realism.
What about offgame civilians walking into the area? Remember that Swedish law prohibits Berget from stopping people to walk into those potentially dangerous ingame situations.

And it can be really hard to see if people have safety glasses on or off.

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Post by Gryffyd » 24 Jun 2010, 18:47

jurgen975 wrote:use uniforms that are used in the real world so no multicam.
Australian SOTG members in Afghanistan...


Real soldiers in the real world.

I liked the uniform split that we had this year, but the armband added extra faction confirmation to some of the uniforms that were on the borderline, plus it had an added benefit of putting all the player ID's in the same spot, making it easy to find if needed. Some of the desert patterns were quite easy to spot in the lush green forest, but in the majority of cases it was movement/noise that gave people away.
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Post by Hypokondrikern » 24 Jun 2010, 19:01

I had a really nice Berget-experience even though me and my friends ran around like flashlights in the forest with our Choclate Chip and British Camo. Poldavians was hard to spot but just slightly harder than ourselves.
The only thing that irritated me was the use of camos that was kinda in between desert and forest use, the so called, multi-purpose camos. We in the NAF often engaged each other in combat just because of the reason that we had so many camos that looked so diffrent. People in Marpat and Multicam were often shoot down just because they had so dark appearnce in the woods and therefore looked like poldavians.
Also made an ass of myself surrounding a big group of poldavians wearing white t-shirts and OD-pants. We were just about to massacre them when we got second thoughts about it and simply asked them if they were mercs ( our allies). Of course they aswered that they were the enemy and we were all shoot down before he finished the line. . .
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Post by Ukkolzi » 24 Jun 2010, 20:34

Generally the sides were pretty easy to tell apart pretty quickly, as the combination of light/dark camo and a very visible armband worked OK. However, I too think the OD vs camouflage combined with armband would work better for balance purposes - desert camo just generally is less effective in forest than woodland camouflage, although I have to admit that movement & sound usually was first to give people away.

My take on the advantages of armbands: it immediately tells your side, no guessing needed. If the rules were, say, OD vs camo and no armband, and someone in the OD side would wear a Woodland-camouflaged vest and same type of hat, it would add a bit too much confusion.
Example: I'm on the OD side. This WL-vest guy (who is on my side) runs towards me through some light vegetation in retreat or whatever, and I probably couldn't immediately recognize his side. Just to be sure I decide to give him a hail of plastic - *Päpäpäpäm*, whoops, just shot a friend. And I bet he wouldn't be happy about it either.

Of course if the rules would dictate that everything you wear must me camo/OD, it would be another case. But that's pretty harsh.

Then there's the civilians. All fine and well, but the mercenaries are sorta annoying, as you can't always tell who's currently on your side and who's not. In the end battle, there were mercs who were fighting for us and mercs who were against us, all of course wearing the same civilian armband. Yeah, pick your targets, don't shoot friendlies! My suggestion: civilian mercenaries wear the armband of the current faction they are fighting for. Maybe even with some insignia showing that they are mercs, like the letter "M" on the armband.

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Post by Garga » 24 Jun 2010, 21:31

I will make a simple post - camo restriction is good idea (this is how to make soldiers be sticked to a fraction) but i also think that armband is more than necessary. So the good balance between this both recognition elements is the key.

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