A FAIR GAME OR NOT ???

Feedback e debriefings from Berget 8.
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BRITISH-
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Post by BRITISH- » 07 Aug 2010, 23:29

Arbiterman wrote:
BRITISH- wrote:I have heard from the Italians playing with NAF that reason they went homes was that they were told that it was "game off" and that most of the Pold's had gone home(not true we all stayed and lived in mud soaked tents), plus they say their camp was a mess, but then so was ours!!!!!!!
Hi British, this is Scarecrow actual :)
Nice to see again, comrade!

Can you please find out with your Italian NAF colleagues, who exactly told them that "most of Poldavians gone home"?
hello my russian friend!

they told me it came throgh their chain of command from beget crew!!?!!

I look forward to seeing you next year!! :D

British-

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jurgen975
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Post by jurgen975 » 08 Aug 2010, 14:43

That doesnt make sence I was in 5th Naf Base and if berget crew tolt them to go home the we all should have been all tolt to go home.
Because the tents were leaking the Intalians where the first to go and after that others followed.From our piont of view the game was dead in water so my platoon decided to leave and I also left on friday evening


BRITISH- wrote:
Arbiterman wrote:
BRITISH- wrote:I have heard from the Italians playing with NAF that reason they went homes was that they were told that it was "game off" and that most of the Pold's had gone home(not true we all stayed and lived in mud soaked tents), plus they say their camp was a mess, but then so was ours!!!!!!!
Hi British, this is Scarecrow actual :)
Nice to see again, comrade!

Can you please find out with your Italian NAF colleagues, who exactly told them that "most of Poldavians gone home"?
hello my russian friend!

they told me it came throgh their chain of command from beget crew!!?!!

I look forward to seeing you next year!! :D

British-
B7- NATO, India Com, 2nd Platoon, SL 2nd Squad
B8-NAF 5 th Battalion,TL
B9-Due to a gun mailfunction had to leave the game
B10-Company Commander Alpha Company 3 rd Ranger Battalion

Megido
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Post by Megido » 08 Aug 2010, 21:22

I think that the real issue here is not how fair or unfair some aspects of the game were...

For me, the real issue and probably the biggest downfall of Berget 8 was the overall imbalance of it.

In each airsoft game, regardless of its scale, the balance factor is a very important issue.

In games without normal balance between forces, everyone has less fun than they should.
Suffice it to read some of the feedback written by Poldavian players about their disappointment of the number and quality of opposition they had, to understand that this affects all sides.

Sure - The quality of players and commanders in each side are a major factor in determining how balanced a game is.
However, I think that in Berget 8, there were many other factors that helped in tipping the balance of the game even before it started.

Berget 8 started out unbalanced from the get go. Much more players preferred to choose the Poldavian side over the NAF side and that's a fact.
Did the new camo restriction have anything to do with it? I think we all know the answer.
Most players prefer woodland/dark camos over desert/light ones... What can you do about it?

Personally, as a player in the NAF side, I don't think that the camo restriction gave an advantage to the poldavian side but that's beside the point...
Desert/Woodland camo restriction should not make an appearance next year only due to the registration imbalance it creates.

In addition to the camo restriction (whose affect couldn't really be predicted by BE), there were other factors that affected the balance that MUST not be repeated for next year:

- Letting 350 players (>50 over limit) register to the Poldavian 1st, even when it was known that the opposite NAF 23rd and NAF 5th factions haven't reached their 200 and 300 max...

- Letting players from the NAF side that already registered to the faction forums switch over to the Polodavian side...

- Base placements (and I don't mean conditions-wise) - Placing 2 Poldavian bases together at the same spot...
I'm sure that the Psyops would have more fun protecting their own base without the immediate assistance of 250-300 1st Inf players...

P.S -
These should only be considered as constructive criticism.
At the end of the day - BE just lays out the ground - it's up to you to determine how much you're getting of the game and I must admit that I really had fun at Berget 8 :)

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Redmenace_tv
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Post by Redmenace_tv » 08 Aug 2010, 21:51

Nice post Megido
(TOM)
Berget 8 - NAF 5th Staff Officer
Berget 9 - 2IC NAF 1st Mech battalion
Berget 10 -2IC NAF 23rd Inf Battalion
Berget 11 -AWOL
Berget 12 - AWOL
Berget 13 - ?

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Tiger_1
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Post by Tiger_1 » 09 Aug 2010, 12:19

Well, for the "how many guys" each side had, I am sure Berget can give us the correct nr, so that should take care of that, one way or the other.

As for the uniforms, nobody said dessert ver woodland is perfect, it is just better then the alternativ. As it seems people do not manage to follow simpel rules, as long as they belive they can get around them.
I would be very happy to play a "nato ver eastblock" game with only eastblock camo allowed on the East side, and NATO on the other. But I KNOW people will turn up in their "cool NATO SF" setup and play for the east side, becouse they could not get into the NATO side and when asked about their uniforms they will say "I am a merc, so I dont have to follow the rules".
So stick to rules that at least allows them to wear all their cool kit, and still wear diffrent camo!

As for the "who went home" thing. On friday morning I reported to Berget that I would be going into the field with 2 platoons from base on time 0900, and keep one on base defence and one keeping dry and getting ready. I was then intending to rotate my units so everyone got a chance to get dry. I was then told that there might not be a lot of enemy out.
I then also got a call from Obelix and talked to Blackwolf and Whiteace on the NAF side as well as the other Pol commanders. NAF said they were not conducting offensiv operations due to weather, and sorting out their commands, as they had had people leave. I said, "ok, then I will keep my guys dry and leave you to it" I know there was fighting during this time, but nothing major. When the weather got better, I talked to Berget and as things were getting activ again, I put my command back in the field. And had a good day for the rest of Friday, ending in Blackwolf hitting my base late at night for some good fights.
On saturday I was told not to conduct offensiv operations until 12. This we did, and got rolling as soon as that time was out.
This was the whole level of information passed about people leaving and the status of NAF. I did also hear that 150 players had left one NAF unit, but did not know if I belived that or not.
Berget was given a running update on my troop levels ( I lost about 30 guys total during the game, mostly due to factors outside both mine, Berget or the weathers controll (and that will happen every game).
As for fair or not. My unit was in several large fights, and I do not belive anyone in my unit felt we outnumberd NAF, as all fights where good and hard.
Also, it might be good to focus on giving Berget the feedback on the tings they CAN fix, instead of focusing on the things they cant (turning back time, making the rain go away, things like that...).
No major airsoft event is perfect, but berget keeps getting better, lets help them getting a bit better for next year also!
"go to your God like a soldier!"

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Post by freno » 09 Aug 2010, 13:38

Very good point, Tiger_1!!!

What CAN BE do, and what CAN WE do?
See you next year!
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Post by Megido » 12 Aug 2010, 18:42

I would be very happy to play a "nato ver eastblock" game with only eastblock camo allowed on the East side, and NATO on the other. But I KNOW people will turn up in their "cool NATO SF" setup and play for the east side, becouse they could not get into the NATO side and when asked about their uniforms they will say "I am a merc, so I dont have to follow the rules".
I totally agree on the point against the "NATO vs. eastblock" method as I saw it in my own eyes at B7.
However we must remember that:

a. This is not the only alternative. What about "digital/non-digital" , "USA/rest of world" , and others?
Surely there is a method that won't affect registration as badly as desert/woodland did and that players will be inclined to follow.

b. BE never stressed the importance of camo restriction in B7 as they did in B8's main news page - Telling everyone what exactly will happen to anyone who violates the camo restriction rule.
How about giving one more chance to the Nato/eastblock method with the same commitment of enforcement and seeing what'll happen?
Also, it might be good to focus on giving Berget the feedback on the tings they CAN fix, instead of focusing on the things they cant (turning back time, making the rain go away, things like that...).
+1.
The only reason I wrote my earlier post is, as I said, to give some "constructive criticism".
Tiger_1 - I believe you weren't referring to my post in this quote, However, I want to stress this anyways - I'm not asking anyone to "turn back time", just not to repeat stuff that, IMHO, were bad for the balance of the game in B8 for B9.

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Post by Gryffyd » 13 Aug 2010, 11:59

NATO vs East Bloc camo... I think the biggest problem with that, and the biggest reason for the Light vs Dark camo of B8, is for easier visual recognition of friend vs foe... as it was we had a FF incident because one of the desert style camo's was bordering on the green side of things. You throw in people wearing basically the same colours with only the patterns being different and that is going to increase. Yes, you can get around that by making sure you fully identify targets before you engage... and I do, but a lot of people don't, they see movement and if there is even the slightest chance it is an enemy they shoot at it. Reconnaissance by fire :)

I don't believe that wearing a lighter camo in the Swedish countryside was that much of a hinderance, this is airsoft, you're not engaging targets at 200+ meters, generally by the time someone is in range you can see them no matter what they are wearing, the movement and the noise has already given them away.
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STUNTMAN
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Post by STUNTMAN » 13 Aug 2010, 18:34

Guys, didn't we played Berget 5 like that? I don't remember any problems with the camos!
If the players use the correct armband collor and size, and allways use them visible, there is no problem at all!

STUNTMAN
BERGET VETERAN:

B5 - Allied Forces - Mech Brigd Echo Coy.
B6 - Nato Forces - Mech Brigd Foxtrot Coy
B7 - Nato Forces - Foxtrot Coy.
B8 - NAF 23rd - Foxtrot Coy
B9 - NAF 6th -Foxtrot Coy
B11 - GCT Taskforce SIDU - Foxtrot Coy

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Tiger_1
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Post by Tiger_1 » 13 Aug 2010, 19:20

At b5 half the guys on the russian side looked more like the sas or blackwater then the real guys ;) and there was several squads of norwegian camo guys to.
I must also say i agree with point of dessert not being a big problem. And it did help with the blue on blue issue.
"go to your God like a soldier!"

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Post by Brujo » 13 Aug 2010, 20:38

I must say the longer this thread grows, the more I am leaning towards good old-fashioned armband solution. That was still the main IFF for my team this year!
Red vs. blue, East vs. West, force on force! Those were the days, eh? 8)
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B6 - NATO Battalion Commander
B7 - Orlov's Plt CO
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hezi
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Post by hezi » 13 Aug 2010, 23:01

Brujo wrote:I must say the longer this thread grows, the more I am leaning towards good old-fashioned armband solution. That was still the main IFF for my team this year!
Red vs. blue, East vs. West, force on force! Those were the days, eh? 8)
+1 :)
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Smacker
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Post by Smacker » 13 Aug 2010, 23:04

i still think this was the best berget i have been on.

as you all said that the biggest problem for this type of big scale gaming is cammo. Armbands is easy to use. But for we who are a bit more serius knows that the biggest part of the game is about the clothes and the small roles that are given to us.

if my commander next year say that i have the wrong uniform im gonna figth naked and let my underwear carry the right coulor. (except for my combat west)
B5 - Russia
B6 - GCM
B7 - Milos Tigers
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Brujo
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Post by Brujo » 13 Aug 2010, 23:24

Smacker wrote:But for we who are a bit more serius knows that the biggest part of the game is about the clothes and the small roles that are given to us.
"We" who have been buying entire kits just for one specific game, spent four hours in respawn and walked missions without firing AEG's also know that the massive 1000+ Berget is NOT ALL about re-enactment and mil-sim.
This was discussed before, BE had to un-brand Berget as milsim, they invented fictional war and a fictional country and managed to mix a little bit of something for everyone into a four-day mass-multiplayer airsoft game.
You can be thin or fat, dumb or genius, caucasian or indian, everyone is given the chance to find his game and live it for a few days. That is the only way you will get 1000+ people to pay you each 100 Euro.

I will join your statement Smacker and claim B8 to have been the best Berget so far. Am expecting B9 to be even better and will help to make it a better one as much as it is within my power.
B5 - Soviet VDV Battalion Commander
B6 - NATO Battalion Commander
B7 - Orlov's Plt CO
B8 - Poldavian 3rd Mountaineers
B10 - Poldavian 15th Sappers Commander
Airsoft Klub Salamander - Slovenia

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STUNTMAN
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Post by STUNTMAN » 13 Aug 2010, 23:38

I'm a bit suspicious to talk about camo problems, because in Portugal we must play like this by law:

Image

So we're learning to play again this kind of airsoft... fluorescent one, so for us Desert in Woodland terrains it's our smallest problems.

STUNTMAN
BERGET VETERAN:

B5 - Allied Forces - Mech Brigd Echo Coy.
B6 - Nato Forces - Mech Brigd Foxtrot Coy
B7 - Nato Forces - Foxtrot Coy.
B8 - NAF 23rd - Foxtrot Coy
B9 - NAF 6th -Foxtrot Coy
B11 - GCT Taskforce SIDU - Foxtrot Coy

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