The lack of civilians

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Losolos
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Post by Losolos » 19 Mar 2012, 12:30

+1 to Brujo...

but then berget MUST reconsider the PSYOPS rules .. but i like it ;)
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Waldo
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Post by Waldo » 19 Mar 2012, 12:35

Our ROE were allways don't fire at civilians until fired upon. At the first and second day this worked. we had some encounters with civis and they were allways non-hostile. after that the actions of the firm totally destroyed the trust into the civilians, so i can some kind of understand the guys who shot civilians on sight, but it is not a real excuse for doing so....Just think of their families and children :o

Unfortunately there are allways some guys who just want to shoot their guns a lot and make the kill-counter grow, so they shoot everything that moves. We can only beg those guys to step down a bit and take their time to ID their targets. this would improve the game for all of us. And after all; if you want to play speedball, Berget isn't what you are looking for.
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Post by Furey » 19 Mar 2012, 15:04

Yes indeed, the challenge of observing rules of engagement against potentially hostile civilians is probably the hardest thing that real soldiers have to deal with. If Berget gives people some appreciation of that then great! If we wanted it to be easy we'd sit at home playing call of duty, not sweating it out on a Swedish mountain :)

IMO commanding officers of each side need to be the ones who punish players for breaking roe, as well as making roe clear at the start. I hope the military police unit role play out some of these 'enforcements', could be fun.
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Post by DutchWolf » 24 Mar 2012, 21:00

Furey wrote:IMO commanding officers of each side need to be the ones who punish players for breaking roe, as well as making roe clear at the start. I hope the military police unit role play out some of these 'enforcements', could be fun.
+1 on that.

Or maybe some sort of punishment when a side inflicts to many civy casualties. Like if there s to many incidents, NATO comes in an bombs all of that sides mech. units and they don't get to have vehicles for the rest of the day.
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freno
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Post by freno » 24 Mar 2012, 22:20

I will KILL anyone of my team, not respecting the ROE against civilians!!! :-P
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Post by Brujo » 25 Mar 2012, 07:31

1. Civilian status is usually respected only so long, as long there is no incident. In my experience, about 6 hours of game. Then someone thinks it is fun to shoot a red or blue soldier in the back and after one week, forum is full of shit about this and that.

2. RoE can change individually due to 1. and CO will either never find out or will willingly and rightfully open a hunting season on them. I mean come on, if they don't respect their right to live free, why should we?
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Jin
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Post by Jin » 25 Mar 2012, 14:34

Rape tents,burn womens!...Yeahh...oh..i mixed up something
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Mr Black
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Post by Mr Black » 25 Mar 2012, 14:52

Brujo wrote:1. Civilian status is usually respected only so long, as long there is no incident. In my experience, about 6 hours of game. Then someone thinks it is fun to shoot a red or blue soldier in the back and after one week, forum is full of shit about this and that.

2. RoE can change individually due to 1. and CO will either never find out or will willingly and rightfully open a hunting season on them. I mean come on, if they don't respect their right to live free, why should we?
So what you are saying is that it was the civilians own fault that they were locked up in the church and got annihilated?
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Post by kjsaw » 25 Mar 2012, 15:46

Mr Black wrote:
Brujo wrote:1. Civilian status is usually respected only so long, as long there is no incident. In my experience, about 6 hours of game. Then someone thinks it is fun to shoot a red or blue soldier in the back and after one week, forum is full of shit about this and that.

2. RoE can change individually due to 1. and CO will either never find out or will willingly and rightfully open a hunting season on them. I mean come on, if they don't respect their right to live free, why should we?
So what you are saying is that it was the civilians own fault that they were locked up in the church and got annihilated?
I don't really want to defend that action, however there is a point to be made; Within the realm of the story, organised resistance against poldavian forces makes anyone in the area a possible target, technically without interrogation pol forces had no way to determine between real civs and zansians (of course out of game we would know that a finnish accent should make us suspect them, but should you use out of game info in LARP?). If everytime you go near the city you come under attack, you may get to the point where annihilation makes sense.

The UN (which was in a touch position to fufil its role) failed to ensure that poldavian forces did not see the populace of the town as a threat. Certain segments of the population did manage to work with us, and I would hope they did end up as collateral damage.

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Mr Black
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Post by Mr Black » 25 Mar 2012, 16:59

So in a way you DO defend that action?
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Post by Furey » 25 Mar 2012, 17:06

I don't think this is productive, shall we just agree that the Poldavian soldiers and commanders, the civilians and the game masters have all learnt lessons from last year and we'll all make an effort at berget 10 to ensure that the circumstances do not occur again so that the civilians have as much fun as possible?
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Mr Black
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Post by Mr Black » 25 Mar 2012, 17:18

I just find it a bit frightening that two Berget Master Trustees seem to justify such action... instead of condemning it. It doesn´t exactly indicate that the Poldavians "learned their lesson".

I think it´s important to be very clear about how the civilians should be treated. In my opinion "ethnic cleansing" (or whatever you want to call it) has no place in airsoft.
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Post by kjsaw » 25 Mar 2012, 17:47

Mr Black wrote:I just find it a bit frightening that two Berget Master Trustees seem to justify such action... instead of condemning it. It doesn´t exactly indicate that the Poldavians "learned their lesson".

I think it´s important to be very clear about how the civilians should be treated. In my opinion "ethnic cleansing" (or whatever you want to call it) has no place in airsoft.
I was not in the area when this happened, nor as a trustee can I say I am sure stopping it would have been within the role of a trustee (Mostly that role is about assisting berget to keep play fair within the scope of BE's rules, if I was there, by the time I was aware it was happening it would probably have been over).

I don't think its an action that should have happened, did anyone present call game-off to try and stop it?

The point I was attempting to make in my post (and as far as I can tell Brujo is also trying to make), is that when those playing as civillians (or those with the ability to appear to be civillians) start shooting at those playing in a military role, all bets are off. The side effect of using BBs rather than bullets is that those shot have trouble forgetting previous engagements. I have personally tried to "reset" a platoons mindset by moving towards the town with in a posture that assumed no memory of previous zansian masquerading as civ engagements, it ended badly for me.
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spin_t
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Post by spin_t » 25 Mar 2012, 19:38

We r playing a war simulation...looks like has to come in the full package,with the real war atrocities !:)))
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Post by Brujo » 25 Mar 2012, 19:50

Mr Black wrote:I just find it a bit frightening that two Berget Master Trustees seem to justify such action... instead of condemning it. It doesn´t exactly indicate that the Poldavians "learned their lesson".

I think it´s important to be very clear about how the civilians should be treated. In my opinion "ethnic cleansing" (or whatever you want to call it) has no place in airsoft.
Look prick, stop suggesting what I think with your own words. I am trying to find a way how to mix LARP and airsoft in a most milsim way. And sue me for my past experiences.
Make a workable proposal and I will listen with interest...
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