The lack of civilians

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Ober-Lix
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Post by Ober-Lix » 26 Mar 2012, 16:47

Airsoft is not the real war, at the most it is a simulation. I hope you all are not forgetting Berget is a Game ! You all must understand, out there are people with different views about crualty and barbarism displayed in a game. Playing to burne civillians in a church or shooting prisoners for no reason at all, does not go inside with my view of a fun game. :(

We do not have to play war crimes, there has been done enough in the real world !
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Post by Hell_Viking » 26 Mar 2012, 17:10

Ober-Lix wrote:Airsoft is not the real war, at the most it is a simulation. I hope you all are not forgetting Berget is a Game ! You all must understand, out there are people with different views about crualty and barbarism displayed in a game. Playing to burne civillians in a church or shooting prisoners for no reason at all, does not go inside with my view of a fun game. :(

We do not have to play war crimes, there has been done enough in the real world !
Well said !

I think civis bring a new perspective to the game, and is in my book one of the most important fractions. But then again, this isn't a MILSIM, It's a happening.
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Post by Furey » 26 Mar 2012, 17:40

Indeed.

I'm really looking forward to this moral element coming into play at B10 as my faction is holding the citizens of my country in a concentration camp which, in game, I'll be very uncomfortable with.
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Post by Rainer » 26 Mar 2012, 17:50

Ober-Lix wrote: We do not have to play war crimes, there has been done enough in the real world !
+1


It should be obvious for people where the lines should be drawned, between right and wrong there are som pretty clear lines. If you love the sport you should also care about its reputation. Dont drag the sport into a shady light with bad jugment and poor moral. Others will make asumptions based on what they see and hear , from you or others.
And we as a whole will be juged by your actions.
Don't let childish behavior ruin the sport we all care so much about.
Act and reflect "gentelman like" during your time at an event like Berget.

Its a airsoftgame. make sure your oponent has as much fun as yourself.
This attidude are, in my opinion, what real great airsoft games are made of.
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Post by freno » 26 Mar 2012, 19:00

In PSYOPS we will have fun WITH the prisoners...
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Post by DutchWolf » 26 Mar 2012, 21:03

Obi-San wrote:So why dont you judge executions and torchures then?
They happen all the time on BE.
Or they are less evil?
There's a difference between the torture and execution of specific individuals and the indiscriminate slaughter of (mostly) innocent civilians.

One is justifiable, the other isn't.

That said, I wouldn't say "war crimes" should be banned perse. I'd just like to see them have (severe) repercussions for the side that does commit them (although I for one wouldn't want to play for that side).

Right now I think there isn't enough connecting the average trooper to the ongoing MILSIM/LARP/plotline. That makes the whole moral choice / ethics seem a bit less important and makes it easier for some people to just frag anything they think they can get away with.

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Post by M.Koho » 27 Mar 2012, 20:45

Berget is all about having fun, and players playing as civilians will get their fun from LARPing. Players burning them in the houses and constantly shooting civilians are denying that fun from a very big part from game participants. I see that one squad of players will maybe kill some civilians maybe just once in the game, but there is many squads and so few civilians.

I think this is the main problem here, not the ethics about violence. Some people may even find acting violence therapeutic(I've heard that victims of rape, war crimes etc. are sometimes in so-called "acting therapy where they re-enact the happenings that caused the trauma).

Civilian are not some funny targets to NAF/Poldavians/PMC/Zansia they're are players who wan't their part of the fun! And their fun is LARPing and interacting with players who LARP back!

As a solution, I would propose these actions:
1. in opening briefing it should be high lighted that cilivilians are PLAYERS too andthey have PAID their ticket too. Just mindlessly killing them makes they lose REAL money too.
2. Berget-Crew Game Masters patrolling the main civilian locations and intervening if civilians abused.

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Post by Obi-San » 27 Mar 2012, 23:12

Ive played as civilian, and dont tell me about raids, as there sure has been one at least every day, some platoon coming and shooting civilians just to go thru.
So i still think that if for some reason there was "chirch burning" in last day of berget, it is not the biggest problem of them all, it is great LARP moment.
Try to hold your forces not to shoot civilians all the time in first and second days of Berget.
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Post by DutchWolf » 27 Mar 2012, 23:57

Obi-San wrote:Ive played as civilian, and dont tell me about raids, as there sure has been one at least every day, some platoon coming and shooting civilians just to go thru.
So did you enjoy being shot up just for the hell of it?
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Post by Tiger_1 » 28 Mar 2012, 07:00

If it makes you feel any better, 80% of the men responsible for the church insident where dead within 1 hour of it happening.......and the remaining 20 within the next 2.
So the poldavian army no longer has troops who do such things.
But loyal poldavian civilians must support their armed forces and help them in their struggle, do not aid NAF!

Remember, berget is no more LARP then it is Milsim, so unfortunately, until berget turns into one of the two, we will all have to live with events that does not fit with "our" idea of gameplay.
Just for the record, when it turns into LARP, I will not be coming....
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Post by Obi-San » 28 Mar 2012, 07:33

DutchWolf wrote:
Obi-San wrote:Ive played as civilian, and dont tell me about raids, as there sure has been one at least every day, some platoon coming and shooting civilians just to go thru.
So did you enjoy being shot up just for the hell of it?
It was pretty fun. Many players that come to Berget dont even know what LARP is, and why they have to chat with some folks who shoot them in the back. They dont look at faces, they just remember that civilians shoot. So interaction with them equals death.
As long as civilians can shoot at soldiers, there will be backflip situations.
But many players just dont need any LARP interaction
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Post by M.Koho » 28 Mar 2012, 08:32

I meant that Poldavian/NAF soldiers need only to LARp back to civilians, not alltime. It will only take mayde fifteen minutes per a day and it gives so much to players playing as civilians.

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Post by freno » 28 Mar 2012, 20:53

Tiger_1 wrote:If it makes you feel any better, 80% of the men responsible for the church insident where dead within 1 hour of it happening.......and the remaining 20 within the next 2.
So the poldavian army no longer has troops who do such things.
But loyal poldavian civilians must support their armed forces and help them in their struggle, do not aid NAF!

Remember, berget is no more LARP then it is Milsim, so unfortunately, until berget turns into one of the two, we will all have to live with events that does not fit with "our" idea of gameplay.
Just for the record, when it turns into LARP, I will not be coming....
You will, as me, NEVER stay out!
Berget will NEVER be LARP.
Berget will NEVER be MILSIM.
Berget is BERGET...

There will always be both, and probably more type of playing. We can not demand Berget to be only one thing anymore.
If you do THAT, stay out!
I hope you all stay, playing just the kind of play you know and respect other who play theirs!
SITUATIONS will also ALWAYS be there!
Let us deal with it...
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Post by Tiger_1 » 28 Mar 2012, 21:04

And I am very happy with Berget being Berget :)
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Post by DutchWolf » 29 Mar 2012, 23:13

Very well put Freno and Tiger.
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