No10 concluded

Feedback and debriefings from Berget 10
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kjsaw
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Post by kjsaw » 02 Jul 2012, 15:06

Alecu; I can agree with your frustration there, After 10 years BE should be ready with good missions in a timely manner. We spent too much time waiting for real missions to come down, and since they always did come late we did not have the luxury of doing full and complete breifings on how a particular mission impacts the game.

Like I say, despite this I did manage to have a very enjoyable game.

On other issues, It is nice to see that BE is progressing more and more away from the old style swedish tents with large holes in the, but more attention to detail needs to be taken in ensuring the tents are put up correctly, and even then that there are tool avaialble to players/HQ to ensure maintenance of the tents during the game.

Toilets were OK everytime I visited them, I do recall on the first evening of the game (second day of use for them) that they looked at risk of overflowing, but after that, either I got really lucky, or they did empty them each other day (I think there were at least 16 - 20 toilets in the poldavian base); and not it occoured to me that on the last day there was a lack of paper in them (however I have learned to always provide my own)

Radio communications worked well for the first time in berget history, sure there were some deadspots, but overall the radios worked from my perspective. It would appear that the issued cell phones however were seriously lacking in credit, I think our was depleted on the first evening.

Transport seemed to work when we asked for it, with the caveat that we had enough experience not to expect anything at 3am.

15th Sapper specific feedback I will add when Brujo prepares his AAR.
B4 >>> B16
Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.

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RRP Taksi
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Post by RRP Taksi » 02 Jul 2012, 15:15

- Lack of information. Sometimes we did missions and didn't got to know the purpose. We asked, but our superiors were also not informed about it.
As your 2:nd closest commander im sorry about this.
I totally respect the way you and 2-2 performed with respect to the level of info we disperced.
However. To the intel for the missions you guys were told as much as we.
We don´t always get much more than co-ordinates and an objective to solve.
As it very much is in "reality".
- The "Guard the Silo" mission on friday night. Sappers got orders to guard it for 6 hours. It was dark, cold, stormy and wet. At first that was no problem. we prepared for heavy fightings. We dug in and created fortyfied positions. After f4 hours i started to feel not so well (I got 3 layers of cold weather gear, and all were wet) so I returned to base with some other lads. One hour later the rest of our squad came and I asked why they didn't stayed till replacements should arrive at 3am. The reply blew my mind: NAF called out a cease fire for the night....our whole mission was pointless. BE could have talked to the commaders earlier and we wouldn't had to be out there. I am not whining about the weather or things like that. I am not okay with the information policy by BE. The weather was bad all evening, and BE could have known that there would be alot of wet/cold casulties...
I agree this was pretty much a cluserf**k..
Though, BE could not anticipate the outcome with the NAF-situation.
I don´t even know wether or not the "enemies" had knowledge of your location.
And not all players were as hardcore as you guys in the conditions you were in.. Many bailed with the rain.
Your not the only one PO:d about the "ceasefire", but it was based on solid safety issues.
Again i must emphesize my respect for you guys holding the line as you did.

I also personnally scr*w*d the pooch with having my gsm on the wrong profile and missed all calls that evening thus beeing late to extract. :oops:
I got a serious scolding from my xo about this and im really embarrassed. :(
I lost myself in the basedefence keeping troops up and guarding.

/Taksi, 15s2plco
Mmh..

B10 PL.CO 15S,2PL
B4-5-6-7-9 PL/CC (FFF/SRP command foreign and Swed) contact.
OPCR2-3

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Trasher-HU
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Post by Trasher-HU » 02 Jul 2012, 15:17

It was the least enjoyable Berget for me so I can understand the frustration on NAF (or both) sides. In the last few years there was a constant increase in quality, but this year the organizers it plummeted to a new low. It felt like they just wanted to get over B10 as soon as possible with the least effort. I'm sure they spent huge $$$ on comms, pyro, and logistics, but that is just not enough.

- Tossing people last minute into other units.

- The BAVS failed badly which resulted in heated arguments and accusations until we made tests together with NAF guys. Result: the BAVS 40mm grenade only tripped our IR sensor from about 2-3m (!). We got taken out plenty of times, but a lot of players were complaining.

- We had to wait for hours to get our BAVS system installed because the webshop has crashed and BE wasn't able to recover/verify our paid order. (Finally it got sorted out, thanks to the staff!)

- People jumping (literally) in front (or on the hood!! :shock: ) of cars to stop them. People firing point blank at cars. People ripping car doors open and shooting the passengers inside point blank. People hiding mines under the dirt then complaining about cars not respecting them. I've never seen so many dangerous situations in my pervious 5 Bergets.

- NAF cars retreating into offgame areas to avoid confrontation, and going on/offgame at will to create unfair advantage.

- Morale destroying, pointless, repetitive and dull missions like the special location trip or the silo guarding duty (we also clocked in 4+ hours there), or doing suicide runs based on completely false intel (maybe on purpose to entertain happy campers?). We spent around 80-90% of our ingame time traveling to and between Crossroads and Janco. We can take any hardship at Berget, but not McMissions thrown together in 5 minutes before the game start.

- The quality of the opposition is getting worse every year with the exception of the Finnish contingent. BE crew must do something about the balance of force. We were happy when we met NAF troops, but never more than a handful.

And the list goes on...
B6 - NATO, Fox2, mech QRF
B7 - Orlov mercs, Bravo2, medic
B8 - Poldav 3rd Mtn, mech QRF driver
B9 - Poldav 3rd Mtn. recon, Romeo-2 SL
B10 - Poldav 21st Mech Sappers, SL

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HORNET
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Post by HORNET » 02 Jul 2012, 15:45

I agree with Trasher.

What is really interesting is that all the players that say that this Berget game was the worst ever are all front-line players with 4-5 Berget games behind them!

May be in the HQs the game was fun...


Also where were the civilians? What was their role in the game? Or they were just an inventory to the game...
Berget- 6 NATO / Fox Coy / Fox-4 Squad Leader
Berget- 7 NATO / Fox Coy / Fox-4 Platoon Leader
Berget- 8 NAF23 / Fox Coy / Coy Commander
Berget- 9 NAF6 / Fox Coy / Coy Commander
Berget-10 NAF23 / Fox Coy / Coy Commander

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Post by NightSarge » 02 Jul 2012, 15:58

Basicly, there was no need for civilians this year. And from whose who played them, half were undercover Psyops. As BE had nothing prepared for us our situtation was FUBAR, even if i repeat myself.
B6: Diplomats Henchman
B7: Milo´s Tigers Comms Officer
B9: Civilian Policeman
B10: Civilian

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Waldo
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Post by Waldo » 02 Jul 2012, 16:01

To Taksi: I know, you guys told us as much as you know, and this is something i realy apreciated. But It is always nicer if you know why you are at the spot. something like:" We have to attack here, so the other unit can push trhough that point and can activate the supernuke" or something like that. BE could have been much more genorous with infos.

About the Silo-guarding: I realy give kudos to the guys that managed to stay there even one hour more. I realy think that BE could have foreseen many players getting offgame because of the weather. They should have called the faction commanders, and ask them how the moral is within the troop, so they could call a overall cease fire for seafty/health/morale issues.

By the way, I cant wait for the AAR of 45th Mountanieer Sappers :)
B9: Pol. 320th Arty - Coy Cmd
B10: 45th Mountaineer Sappers ("Sapperneers") - Wiley 2-2
B11-B13: Serving the country
B14: UPIR - Righteous Employee

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Post by Panzergraf » 02 Jul 2012, 16:06

I've got 5 Bergets behind me too, and I don't think this was the worst (for me, Berget 7 was the worst despite the perfect weather), but it wasn't the best either.
I don't know what it was, but something made Berget 8 feel a lot less pre-scripted than the two latest games. This felt more like BE had tried to make the game into an airsoft version of an RTS video game. "Hold this point for X hours, escort this truck to this point before the time runs out, hold 2 out of 3 strategic points"
The game would probably feel a lot more dynamic if the focus was on dominating the terrain rather than just changing flags on arbitrary "important" locations.

At Berget 8 it felt more like it was our own command structure that gave us the specific missions, working to achieve an overall goal. Not sure if that was the case, but it felt like it.


I still had fun this year, and I'll try to be back for the next one.
Veteran of 11 Berget Games
B6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17
B17 - Red Mech

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WhiteAce
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Post by WhiteAce » 02 Jul 2012, 16:11

I didn't want to respond just yet, but I feel I have to now, before things get out of hand with no cure at hand...


Alecu and Hornet. I'm sorry you all feel this way, though you may not take those words seriously.
There are though some things I wish for you to know.

First thing you seem not to know, is that Berget crew did not allow me to micro manage things. For that reason alone, I could not give specific missions to specific small groups.

Second, most missions were issued by BE crew - batallion specific. So there was no chance for me to change that. For my position, it was mandatory to follow the chain of command.

Third. I was only informed about your "special wishes" on thirsday evening. I can only work with information I have. If then you adress me with a complaint about my command, then I suggest you also investigate yourself and how you passed your wishes down to me. You did not.
It was not until the specific meeting you refer to, I told you that I was willing to make an exception for the four of you, since you told me your 4 man team were RL SF forces. I told you that you and your 4 men could make your own missions and give them to me for approval. You never came back!

Fourth. The contaminated area mission was screwed up, because some other people (Zanzian or Poldavian) took the specific box, before you guys got there. (They probably did not wear the proper mask and suits...) Blackwolf should have informed you about it. This is however a returning issue in Berget games - get used to it.

Fifth. Overall, there were very much missions given to be executed by some 200-250 people less then anticipated.

Sixth and final. C&C was supposed to have some 50 players. Instead I had me and 2 other less experienced players. I gave them MP and base security roles. That left me with only me on C&C. It took a full day the immense help of the batallion commanders and some company commanders to make C&C work as good as we could get it. So please forgive me to have missed the four of you. It has nothing to do with arrogance. It's the suck and the hands I was given.
Berget 5: 2IC Spetsnaz.
Berget 6: CoyCO NATO Golf coy.
Berget 7: PtnCO 2nd platoon 2nd coy
Berget 8: 3rd Rangers Battalion:
Berget 10: Co of NAF forces

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alecu
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Post by alecu » 02 Jul 2012, 16:22

I am sorry Whiteace if you think about us as a 4 man team, because when i talk, or hornet talk, talks on behalf of Fox 4 - meaning a full company that waited ,3 days and 3 nights geared up, on you to decide what to do with us, and your answer to that was the one pointed out by Hornet, when you and him had talked.

Even if we where 4 man team, you as a commander should have know what missions and how much time your troops spent, and who needs to go out. That is why there are not to many guyz who wants that job you took. The respect comes with it, but also the responsibility of commanding us.

I did not went by my self with Fox 4 out of the base without you giving us a mission especially so today i can say, i waited on you to tell me where and what you need from me, not to say - "alecu / hornet - you did not asked me, u just went" - i am pointing out the fact that i really wanted just to have something to do, not only wait or walk towards something without any real interest to the game.

I know that major problem is from BE that given missions not synchronized with poldavians ones, but as a commander it is you responsibility to keep us on the track. Imagine now, 50+ persons (the 4 men team you are talking) are now on hornet and alecus neck.

Everyday i was in front of the HQ geared-up from 08:30 to 13:30 waiting for a heads-up and nothing happened.

LE: the "own mission" thing is crap, as only rookies without any interest, are just going out side the base to hunt for mosquito's , i camed to berget for something else, look on the www.berget-events.com - scenario, and also look at what is the description of the game. This "own mission" thing it would have highjacked the event, imagine 50+ players out of 400 leaving the base to screw the scenario, our job was to make our men act as a mil sim player and wait for specific orders and action from high command, not sunday speed balling in northern sweden
B7 - NATO
B8 - NAF 23
B9 - NAF 6th Airborne
B10 - NAF 23rd Infantry Battalion
B11 - Taliban Tea Shop Owner
B12 - Taliban Inc.
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WhiteAce
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Post by WhiteAce » 02 Jul 2012, 16:29

Yes I read that Alecu. I'm sorry this thing happened.
It was given that there were missions given and they were passed on to the batallion commanders. They should fill these with the players they had available.
It was only after about a day, that I was able, with the help of the batallion commanders that C&C worked a bit as a proper command unit, passing down orders and concentrate on the game flow and story itself.
It was impossible for me to get down to you guys or any of the friends I made during the past few years at all due to the heavy work load. So from this point I can only apologize for the way things went and made things worse for you and Fox4 (that 4, probably was Fox4, and a miss-communication)
Berget 5: 2IC Spetsnaz.
Berget 6: CoyCO NATO Golf coy.
Berget 7: PtnCO 2nd platoon 2nd coy
Berget 8: 3rd Rangers Battalion:
Berget 10: Co of NAF forces

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Post by Maggie » 02 Jul 2012, 16:43

Sgt._Shaw wrote:-@ Waldo: we also had some OFFGAME Poldavian-Cars passing our roadblocks... but i assume they just wanted to pick up some "hit"-guys....
yeah i know, maybe they just wanted to get passed somehow, but lets think the best ;-)!
the thing is that the NAF cars was INGAME and took up a deathrag to pass the point of contact. that is just pure cheating.

another BIG minus is how the busses dropped us off in a SUBURBAN AREA where children were playing. houses EVERYWHERE around us, kids less than 10 meters away from us playing and people walking theire dogs in the forest we were supposed to fight in. and to make it better we had a 45 min wait there. who the --- SPAM !!! --- is retarded enough to drop of two fully loaded tour-busses in a populated area?

atleast they told us NOT to point our weapons around and keep mags out. that lasted 2 min then a guy with a LMG with the mag connected started waving his MG around to film... he even pointed it towards the kids.

we're talking ONE stupid mistake and this would reflect badly on thousands of players.

i know this is a bit of a rant and a small wall of text on one subject but still now my blood runs hot and im getting angry thinking about how irresponsible that whole thing was.
Berget 9, Poldavian 320th Artillery
Berget 10, 15th sappers 2pl, 2sq
Cædpæt - Norway

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Post by Rubber Duckie » 02 Jul 2012, 16:51

From reading the posts here and talking with players from all the factions i think Berget crew have a lot to answer for. I had to fight for 20 mins to get a group of poldovian troops transported to there base from the naf base for health and safty issues by an ingame military vechicle . On sunday while sorting the extraction of some soked to the skin and shivering pollies freno had to drive a rl doctor from psy-ops to look at a injured naf player as no one was answering from berget crew phones. I would like to thant that same doctor for interviening with berget crey that wanted me to walk from the polly base back to my base with a badly sprained knee. When the rest of my 9 man unit asked if they could come or at least have the backpack brought up the responce was " you played to play so u can walk we are not a taxi service".
I am looking forward to an official responce from berget crew for the issues that people have raised here and i have no doubt the many more that have yet to be pointed out

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Post by Dimori » 02 Jul 2012, 18:20

Waldo wrote:- The "Guard the Silo" mission on friday night. Sappers got orders to guard it for 6 hours. It was dark, cold, stormy and wet. At first that was no problem. we prepared for heavy fightings. We dug in and created fortyfied positions. After f4 hours i started to feel not so well (I got 3 layers of cold weather gear, and all were wet) so I returned to base with some other lads. One hour later the rest of our squad came and I asked why they didn't stayed till replacements should arrive at 3am. The reply blew my mind: NAF called out a cease fire for the night....our whole mission was pointless.
A Poldavian sapper told me about that in the beer party and said that you were expecting a large Zansian attack in there. Actually almost every Zansian was at that time in base sleeping. lol :P I'm not even sure if our command knew where the rest of the silos were. (Only 2 had been found and destroyed by then) We were preparing to abandon the main base in 5 min notice and apparently to move the HQ to Angel Peak for the rest of the game in order to bring the fighting closer to Poldavian base. But the weather and the sudden loss of NAF and Pol players kinda ruined that plan. :wink:
Zansia has the wisdom of falcon.

B10: Zansian "Black guard" Infantry Battalion - F4-7

Panzergraf
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Post by Panzergraf » 02 Jul 2012, 18:32

We had a small Zansian raid on our checkpoint near the missile silo earlier on Friday, a short while before the 15th relieved us. Maybe it was just a random contact and they didn't know the importance of the place :wink:

*then again, I still don't know what kind of in-game effect holding and arming this silo had.
Veteran of 11 Berget Games
B6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17
B17 - Red Mech

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Mr Black
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Post by Mr Black » 02 Jul 2012, 18:33

My thoughts on B10

Nick: Mr Black
Position: NAF 2nd Mech. Inf. Btn. 2IC

I will not discuss poor hit-taking since I really don´t see the benefit in that. Either you deal with it when it occurs or you don´t. Bringing it up after a game doesn´t contribute to anything but unnecessary debate.


NOT SO GOOD

Pre-game
I believe B10 went south long before game start. From what I can see from the pre-game period BE overestimated the capacity and capability of their existing organization. The commanders for B10 were appointed way too late. The last C&C commander was appointed 2nd of April. JudgementDay and I were appointed 8th of May. The commander of Poldavian 5th Inf. Btn. was never officially appointed. That sure doesn´t provide the best of conditions for awesome planning.

During the game
The C&C had way too few members. When BE realized that NAF C&C (don´t know how it was in Pol C&C) only had three (!!!) members they should have assigned BE staff to the C&C to secure a good working C&C. I have no personal experience of Whiteace prior B10 and I do not believe that I can judge Whiteace´s capability from the circumstances that were during this game.
I believe in the idea of a C&C. But it needs more players and I think at least one BE staff should be assigned to each C&C during the entire game.

The showers could use a cleaning once in a while. A lot of sand ended up on the floor and I don´t believe that´s too good for the plumbing.

The porta-pottys could use another method of cleaning. It´s not too comfortable to use them after they´ve been hosed down and it feels like you just missed a flash flood when you step into one. Perhaps a squeegee can be used.

I´ve notice a bunch of new tents. But there are also a lot of bad tents left. Me and some fallow players took care of three hypothermic boys (no offence if you read this, I use the word “boys” because I thought you looked so young) during the Friday night. Their clothes were soaking wet, as were the stuff they kept in their BE-provided tent. I cannot emphasize enough that players have to expect hailstorms and the wrath of the gods when they pack their gear.

NAF 2nd Mech. Inf. Btn.
This game site is not that good for mech. There just aren´t enough roads. I know that BE had plans for another area but I still want it to be addressed.

JudgementDay and I didn´t believe in good coms supplied by BE (no offence Hison, you are an awesome asset) so we brought our own pre-paid cellphones and a high-powered radio. Still we had problems communicating with our battalion commanders.

The BAVS system was awful this year. We heard numerous reports of BAVS not working and arguments regarding that fact. Furthermore there weren´t even enough 40 mm´s to go around even though they were ordered pre-game.

Dark green non-SFX mines does not work. You cannot expect a driver to notice them when the vehicle is under fire. If BE wants to stick to non-SFX mines they should be bright orange so that they can be spotted by the vehicle crew.

We had one MGL mission and it was FUBAR. We were to destroy a missile silo. On our way we were told by BE that we had to appoint a specific engineer that had to touch the silo for ten minutes to destroy it. Upon arrival we did as told and were about to destroy an oil rig when a game master told us that we needed a TNT charge and card saying that the engineer had special skills. Since BE had forgotten to give this to us we had to wait for BE to go and get it. While waiting the 40 of us took defensive positions. While waiting we were attacked by an enemy force six times bigger than ours. During the fight the props for the engineer arrived and he started “planting the charge”. He was shot when he had another minute and a half to go. The game master decided to pass our assignment due to the prior miss information.


GOOD

Pre-game
IMO there was a high activity in the forums. This helped a lot to ease the workload when BE were… less quick.

During the game
The communications worked better this year.

The planning of the base was better this year.

NAF 2nd Mech. Inf. Btn.
I believe it was Alecu who asked whether we had fun at the HQ. I had a great time in the NAF 2nd Mech. Inf. Btn. HQ and I´m quite sure that JudgementDay agrees with me. I do not mean to rub it in or anything. I just want to answer the question.

If reports of irresponsible or cheating players came to our knowledge we either contacted that specific player or the right commander to get it sorted out. Not a single report about NAF 2nd Mech. Inf. Btn. players using dead rags to cheat reached me. If it would we would´ve had that thing sorted out. IMO the contact with the opposing commanders worked well and helped a lot. We heard several reports about a gray civilian car flying a red flag but no BAVS that was used for dropping of in-game Poldavians. The reports ended after we´ve contacted the Poldavian C&C commander.

During the game I checked with all Btn. CO´s what missions they were about to execute, so that I could arrange a Mech. QRF or some other kind of aid. It wasn´t always needed and there´s nothing strange about that. But I sure enjoyed to cooperate with other Btn. CO´s.

I´m most grateful for the awesome players in NAF 2nd Mech. Inf. Btn. All of you performed above my expectations. It was a true joy working with you and I´ll sure as hell do it again next year if you let me!

I´m also lucky to have had so much help from our Coy. CO´s and their 2IC. Without you guys we would´ve been doomed.

Asgard command, out
Hic sunt mortem

Nemo me impune lacessit

B8 NAF 5th Infantry, Plt leader Echo Delta
B9 NAF 1st Mech Inf Btn, Coy CO Cobra 1
B10 NAF 2nd Mech Inf Btn, 2iC
B11 UA17 (Captain Black)
B12 Civilian (Jim Tom Mudwater)

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