Debriefing Berget 13.

Feedback and debriefings from Berget 13
vinni
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Re: Debriefing Berget 13.

Post by vinni » 11 Jul 2015, 13:04

Yeah, I can agree with that. Should've said player teamwork mentality/skills rather than individual skills.
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Re: Debriefing Berget 13.

Post by L4gi » 11 Jul 2015, 13:12

Wouldnt be a bad idea for some of the guys who usually play "reds" to try out the other side. I dont know why it is, but generally from my experience at international games it feels like the mentality of some players on the "blue" side is slightly wrong. They come to show off their fancy gear instead of giving it their all and playing to the end.

Its not easy to fix player mentaliy, and its also a shame to see good teams switching sides to get away from the bad apples.
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Re: Debriefing Berget 13.

Post by jdoe » 11 Jul 2015, 17:26

Gladio wrote: What I think I that we needed more is to have some like 2 or 3 Commanders,with a kind of shift but at least 2,at the whole time in the HQ to manage the Units on the field having the "big picture" of the AO constantly clear and active.
Sounds like an OPS room / element. I've been trying to sell this idea to all pregame unit planners for many years, with close to zero success. My vision is, that would work as a hub of info, getting it actively from subunits, relaying them to commanders, answering to questions from players, relaying orders and keeping up the general awareness of the situation within the unit and the field. It also has a security aspect to it; a 24/7 OPS center could provide help to players in need of real emergency help a lot faster than the systems currently inplace.

I don't know how it was this year with HQs since I wasn't there, but from the sound of it, GCT didn't have an OPS element, and it shows. Maybe Ikaros did, atleast at some level but how it was composed, was it 24/7 manned and how it worked, I don't know.

Added to this, players should now how to get info and help ingame. It seems to me, this aspect is still lacking and needs improvement. From both BE and ingame unit commanders and staff.
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vinni
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Re: Debriefing Berget 13.

Post by vinni » 11 Jul 2015, 17:38

We didn't have a 24/7 occupation of the HQ (although the downtime was limited).

The only day we did have an all-round schedule was the night before the battalion base assault. We kept a 2 man rotation to follow up on any messages coming in from advanced units.
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Genocide
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Re: Debriefing Berget 13.

Post by Genocide » 11 Jul 2015, 23:34

L4gi wrote:Wouldnt be a bad idea for some of the guys who usually play "reds" to try out the other side.
Been there done that=) Played blue side at b8,b9 and b10. And honestly....crappy commanders back then to, atleast teh batco. At lower level it was good. It was at b10 i decided to create Thor company with a friend. Simple rules, swedishspeaking players only (for communication reasons), invite only(to get players with same mentality).

This resulted in a tight mech unit where all players know eachother and have no played for 4 year together counting 50+ players.

Where am i going with this? i want to point out that MANY players on the red side belong to some larger groups. Balder company (another mech unit) consisted of norwegians only that know eachother from previous games in norway + same language. Heimdal company the same thing there.

Blue force consists of smaller groups. Bad communication etc. Its not about the noobs or the gearsluts or even the camo. Proper command even at lower ranks with good communication. Thats what blue force needs.

You guys had 12 or so cars...why in he whole world did you split them up? Alot of times we attacked 1-2 cars that were driving by themselves. Combine, group, lead!

:team: <- thats what blue side needs
:wank: <- not that
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Re: Debriefing Berget 13.

Post by L4gi » 11 Jul 2015, 23:39

You should ask the guys in the cars. ;)

Its awesome that people form big groups, one of the reasons why we have one aswell. Its impossible to force people to do something they dont want at an event where they pay to attend. Even if people are provided the means to thrive, they dont always take up on them. Which results in :wank: instead of :team:
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Re: Debriefing Berget 13.

Post by HerrNilson » 12 Jul 2015, 13:24

Genocide wrote:
Blue force consists of smaller groups. Bad communication etc. Its not about the noobs or the gearsluts or even the camo. Proper command even at lower ranks with good communication. Thats what blue force needs.
As a grunt Bluefor had excellent communication on the ground at the platoon and squad level (at least in the paras) the issue appeared to be communication at higher levels between different platoons and also further on between different elements of GCT. There was little interaction or coordination between different divisions, as a result GCT lost before it even started. The photos and some of the feedback on the forums seems to indicate that RedFor was faced with the same lack of overall command but rolled with the punches better and were able to mitigate the issue.

If its lack of volunteers for a BlueFor Intel support, then where do I sign up? I will happily take part in that, as long as im not guarding a gate for 3 days.

I think Genocide diagnosed the problem excellently after Berget 10, if you want success in this then it needs to be invested in. The time frame Berget provides units and commanders to become cohesive is understandable from their prospective but if BlueFor wishes to succeed then an approach like Thor company has taken is perhaps needed. Already there are elements of the Bluefor that are organically starting to band together, familar faces are appearing and people are getting to know one another, I hope that some success might come of it shortly before people just stop coming.

We can blame the numbers, or the lack of trucks, or the motivation of players but visible top down leadership that looks to be working hard is what will make a significant difference. If we compare to PMC last year, we got a raw deal on that occassion but we had a visible commander that was trying his best with a shit situation.
Berget 10 - Pol 3 MNT 3 Coy
Berget 11 - GCT SIDU
Berget 12 - PMC Hatchet 1-1
Berget 13 - Para Inf Alpha 3 (BAVS)
Berget 14 - Alpha Company - Alpha 1-0
Berget 15 - Pathfinders
Berget 16 - NAF HQ 2IC

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Re: Debriefing Berget 13.

Post by Switchback » 13 Jul 2015, 06:46

HerrNilson wrote: If its lack of volunteers for a BlueFor Intel support, then where do I sign up? I will happily take part in that, as long as im not guarding a gate for 3 days.
While I wasn't in psy-ops, I was talking to them a lot during the event. What happened was for some reason psyops really didn't get any missions, and whenever they tried doing stuff they got slaughtered due to lack of support from other elements. (Only two squads of psyops)

That being said, from what I saw they tried to make the best possible effort, even after being forgotten about by 1st inf command, and they got stuck with base defence.

I'm told that they are going to try getting a proper psy-ops running with joint missions and such (Like the mech/para/sapper/mortar raid). If I go this next year I will be running psy-ops, either as the shady CIA style guy named Lynch or something different.
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Re: Debriefing Berget 13.

Post by HerrNilson » 13 Jul 2015, 10:27

Sounds like a comon problem this year with GCT.


However I didn't mean like PsyOps, for a functioning command it surely needs a HQ support staff, processing the collected Intel, generating missions and mission profiles and updating element commanders and the overall commander. An intelligence staff

If it all comes down to the GCT commander and his XO as well as the commanders of individual elements then I think I'm starting to understanding one of the reasons why GCT are failing to be an effective force , particularly when it comes to coordinating between different elements.

Edit - I see on the teams now that there was suppose to be something like what I am getting at GCT Command and Intelligence, so really wtf happened there then? Given that GCT didn't even have a command tent and para HQ tried their best to fill the gap?
Berget 10 - Pol 3 MNT 3 Coy
Berget 11 - GCT SIDU
Berget 12 - PMC Hatchet 1-1
Berget 13 - Para Inf Alpha 3 (BAVS)
Berget 14 - Alpha Company - Alpha 1-0
Berget 15 - Pathfinders
Berget 16 - NAF HQ 2IC

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Re: Debriefing Berget 13.

Post by Askorbiini » 13 Jul 2015, 13:12

HerrNilson wrote:(...) GCT are failing to be an effective force , particularly when it comes to coordinating between different elements.
This is what I feel the biggest flaw was this year. Our mech command was quite well on the map (thx Baron), but when it came down to "what are other companies doing, can we help?", they had no idea since they were told nothing. Atleast that is the picture I had when I asked for missions or other tasks.

Other difficult task was to get in contact with other companies while out on the field. It would have been a good thing to warn our mortar unit at that we stopped a convoy on the road to the hills, that was on its way to take that unit down. But when you have no idea who is who and where they are, it boiled down to the point that we just fought as long as we could and hoped that the enemy would back off or friendly reinforcements would arrive purely by chance.

Switchback wrote:(...) I will be running psy-ops, either as the shady CIA style guy named Lynch ...
Then I think I should ditch my "B.A." -style mohawk and beard so I won't get arrested or something... since I have a van, our team runs in the back and we have one pretty "Face" on our team too. :mrgreen:
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Re: Debriefing Berget 13.

Post by Genocide » 13 Jul 2015, 21:34

The photos and some of the feedback on the forums seems to indicate that RedFor was faced with the same lack of overall command but rolled with the punches better and were able to mitigate the issue.
What photos?
Last edited by Genocide on 14 Jul 2015, 11:09, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Debriefing Berget 13.

Post by Switchback » 14 Jul 2015, 05:01

Askorbiini wrote: This is what I feel the biggest flaw was this year. Our mech command was quite well on the map (thx Baron), but when it came down to "what are other companies doing, can we help?", they had no idea since they were told nothing. Atleast that is the picture I had when I asked for missions or other tasks.
Yea, I had one para guy ask for our squads radio frequency so that they could coordinate for reinforcements if needed, I think a lot of the lower level commanders tried to start getting organized into a combined force. Having the main inf groups split between 1st inf and para really didn't help, the disconnect between command staff really was evident. The Mech commander probably did the best, trying to integrate the different units. And whomever made the visual map of the town.
Askorbiini wrote: Then I think I should ditch my "B.A." -style mohawk and beard so I won't get arrested or something... since I have a van, our team runs in the back and we have one pretty "Face" on our team too. :mrgreen:
I'll blame it all on a certain general Morrison. :)
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B15: UPIR PsyOps
B16: NAF Mechanized [Golf 1]

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Re: Debriefing Berget 13.

Post by Felix » 14 Jul 2015, 11:50

HerrNilson wrote:Sounds like a comon problem this year with GCT.


However I didn't mean like PsyOps, for a functioning command it surely needs a HQ support staff, processing the collected Intel, generating missions and mission profiles and updating element commanders and the overall commander. An intelligence staff.....
We kept feeding intel to the PsyOps, but I felt more and more like the information was never used at all. When talking to blue grunts they seemed to lack even basic information like where their lines were and which points they held. They might of course be lying to keep a tight opsec, but it did not feel like they were.

Gathering information is just no good without some form of analysis and ability to get the information to the people who can use it.
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Re: Debriefing Berget 13.

Post by Rythm » 14 Jul 2015, 12:46

The photos and some of the feedback on the forums seems to indicate that RedFor was faced with the same lack of overall command but rolled with the punches better and were able to mitigate the issue.
I can with 100% certainty say that this was not the case amongst the three military parts (Minerva inf, Hermes Mech and Cerberus Milsim) as we pre-game filled these spots with 6mm crew and opted to run a unified HQ just like the last two games. The cooperation with Demeter was really smooth too.

With hindsight i reckon the big difference between blue and red were:

*Unified HQ to run all military ops
*extreme freedom for platoon leaders to solve missions as they deemed fit, knowing HQ would throw in support if requested (and mission had enough priority to warrant it), and none would be discriminated for a botched mission
*excellent company commanders and platoon leaders, most of whom played with us for the third year straight

Numbers, BAVS etc is not even a secondary consideration for me. Truth be told, i think if numbers were reversed red would still have "won". But i would like you all to consider the reason we are here: To have fun. Its not really bout winning. One of the most intense and fun Bergets for me was B9 were 6mm formed a UN company without a snowballs chance in hell to "win", but i am convinced we had the most fun of all that year. So chill bout them numbers and winning and shit, and focus on having fun and you automaticly become winners, just like us in 6mm.
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Re: Debriefing Berget 13.

Post by HerrNilson » 14 Jul 2015, 13:41

Rythm wrote:
The photos and some of the feedback on the forums seems to indicate that RedFor was faced with the same lack of overall command but rolled with the punches better and were able to mitigate the issue.
I can with 100% certainty say that this was not the case amongst the three military parts (Minerva inf, Hermes Mech and Cerberus Milsim) as we pre-game filled these spots with 6mm crew and opted to run a unified HQ just like the last two games. The cooperation with Demeter was really smooth .
I think you've just supported my overall point, Both red and blue had the same starting situation with commanders but red was able to solve the issue, Blue accepted it so lost before the game started
Berget 10 - Pol 3 MNT 3 Coy
Berget 11 - GCT SIDU
Berget 12 - PMC Hatchet 1-1
Berget 13 - Para Inf Alpha 3 (BAVS)
Berget 14 - Alpha Company - Alpha 1-0
Berget 15 - Pathfinders
Berget 16 - NAF HQ 2IC

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