Rule Suggestions

General information about our next game summer 2016.

Rule Suggestions

Postby M.Koho » Thu 12 Jan, 2017 18:40

As I am little bored at the moment I would like to bring something up to discussion:

Semisniper/DMR rules: there is only really thin margin on full auto and DMR weapons considering power limit, pretty much only 0,3 joules that in use transfer into only very small growth of range, usually around 5 meters that as far as I think pretty much nothing considered usual engagement distances. DMR weapons are like full auto weapons limited to 0.30g BBs, so DMR user can not really grow their range by using heavier BBs either. Also semi snipers are limited to only 30 BBs per magazine versus full-auto guns are allowed to have 100 BBs and support weapons even more. Support weapons also have the same muzzle power limits that DMRs have, so they can be made to be as powerful, pretty much as accurate, have the same range, and still be only little clumsier. All in all it's fare to say, I think, that game rules don't support semi sniper at all.

What I would do, is to give some more to semi snipers in one, maximum of two, of these three fields. Maybe allow them to have output power of 2.2 joules or give these right to use heavier BBs (up to 0.36g maybe?) or up the magazine capacity for DMRs let's say 50 BBs. Given the power, they would have longer range than full auto weapons, given the heavier BBs they would be significantly more accurate than full auto sticks or given bigger magazine capacity they would be able to give some what more accurate and little more powerful fire than full autos for reasonable period of time. These small, but somewhat significant, changes would make the DMR standout more from the mass off assault rifles, heavy weapons and bolt actions without making them too powerful.

Maybe it's too late for Berget 15 but I'd still consider this for Berget 16 and so on. I also made the headline to say "Rule Suggestions" for it to be vague enough for other discussion about rules if people have something else to bring up.

And just to be clear: I mean the samething (SVDs, SR-25s etc.) when I say "semi sniper" or DMR. I also something invested in this matter as I have a little semi sniper project going on. More of that in the field if I get it ready.
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Re: Rule Suggestions

Postby Berget-events » Fri 13 Jan, 2017 07:44

From veterans corner.

During past years, our experience with semi snipers is bad. It became even worse when players started to use the systema PTW as semi snipers and suddenly you had 10-15 % of players as semisnipers shooting 3.5 bbs/second tuned to class 6. Lots of complaints, argues and problems to GM and Crew.

We want to reward those who have chosen the path of bolt action snipers since semi snipers are all to often shooting like auto (even they are semi though). Since there is no recoil in airsoft a semi sniper with class 6 is too powerful and can outrange most guns in the game. The heaver and clumsier guns like barret is allowed to class 6 to give some kind of bonus for dragging around those big guns.

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Re: Rule Suggestions

Postby Spof » Fri 13 Jan, 2017 07:47

If ROF (Rate of fire) could be locked to like 1 shot per two seconds it could work. But that would be technically impossible for most guns.
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Re: Rule Suggestions

Postby M.Koho » Fri 13 Jan, 2017 08:37

I totally forgot the PTW problem, they are really not that common in Finland. HPAs should be just as easy to use in exploiting semi sniper rules.

Anyways, I would still either take PTWs (and maybe HPAs) out of the semi sniper class and give semi snipers some of the improvements I made on first post or to keep it simple give semi snipers only the heavier BBs. Heavier BBs don't give that much to exploiters, merely just to make using semi sniper little bit more practical. One could also limit heavier weight BBs to a weapon type or operating principle.
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Re: Rule Suggestions

Postby Magne » Fri 13 Jan, 2017 15:42

@spof - For all Wolverine hpa owners there is a built in function (2 sec delay) in the FCU for such reasons as DMR, however it will make it necessary to make the battery/fcu connector tamper proof with some tamper tape etc due to the fact that the function is trigger programmed.
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Re: Rule Suggestions

Postby L4gi » Fri 13 Jan, 2017 22:37

Instead of doing this, Berget Events should get rid of the chroning with meters per second chroning that is outdated. Just chrone in joules already, will make the event much safer than allowing people to "cheat" the chrono with tech tricks.
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Re: Rule Suggestions

Postby Corni » Sat 14 Jan, 2017 01:57

L4gi wrote:Instead of doing this, Berget Events should get rid of the chroning with meters per second chroning that is outdated. Just chrone in joules already, will make the event much safer than allowing people to "cheat" the chrono with tech tricks.


I don't want to be a smartass here, but technically a chronometer can only measure speed ergo fps or m/s.
So as long as players don't use the wrong BBs for chroning it really doesn't matter.

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Re: Rule Suggestions

Postby vinni » Sat 14 Jan, 2017 09:30

Not entirely true, there is a certain Joule creep effect with certain HPA systems, where a heavier bb receives more initial energy than a lighter bb would.
Measuring in Joules would require the input of the player's desired bb weight, and ofc his/her honesty about the matter.
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Re: Rule Suggestions

Postby NightSinner » Sat 14 Jan, 2017 15:52

vinni wrote:Not entirely true, there is a certain Joule creep effect with certain HPA systems, where a heavier bb receives more initial energy than a lighter bb would.
Measuring in Joules would require the input of the player's desired bb weight, and ofc his/her honesty about the matter.


so back to square one really :?
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Re: Rule Suggestions

Postby L4gi » Sat 14 Jan, 2017 21:35

Corni, also certain barrel/piston combos allow you to joule creep "normal" guns aswell, but its most evident in HPA systems.
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Re: Rule Suggestions

Postby Corni » Sun 15 Jan, 2017 01:09

Nobody asked for this, but let me geek out on this one.

The Chrony measures the time a BB spends between two photo sensors wich are arranged in a certain distance and therefor it only measures speed.
The calculation into joul is only a theoretical value.
To include joulecreep while chroning you would need to measure every gun with the BBs that will be used at the game later (or at least BBs of the same weight).

Granted if you present the limits in fps/ms you would need to break it down for every weight players bring to the game. Whereas the joul value never changes. And yes that would be simpler.

The real problem is the effort of chroning every gun of every player with the BB weight that he uses in game afterwards and of course every player being honest about it and even knowing their setup.

Long story short, as long as all guns continuously will be chroned with 0.20g BBs it doesn't matter.

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Re: Rule Suggestions

Postby Windi^ » Sun 15 Jan, 2017 10:15

Corni, you are right. The chroning SHOULD be done with players own BB's, with the BB's players actually use in field. The system now sucks since at least my guns chrono totally different values with BE provided 0.2g BB's, than it chronoes with the BB's I actually use.
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Re: Rule Suggestions

Postby Hazardous » Sun 15 Jan, 2017 13:14

Windi^ wrote:Corni, you are right. The chroning SHOULD be done with players own BB's, with the BB's players actually use in field. The system now sucks since at least my guns chrono totally different values with BE provided 0.2g BB's, than it chronoes with the BB's I actually use.


That's exactly the point why all chrono with .20 BB's :)
Otherwise we would have a list that would look something like:
Class 3 @ .20 .......... 129m/s (1.6J)
Class 3 @ .25 .......... 111m/s (1.6J)
Class 3 @ .28 .......... 103m/s (1.6J)
(these numbers are just shot from my hip, not actual measurements)

The point is that it doesn't matter what weight you use, restrictions are the same never the less :P
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Re: Rule Suggestions

Postby L4gi » Sun 15 Jan, 2017 21:00

But its not the same.

Gun A) Shoots 130m/s with 0.2g Berget BB. Player uses BB .30, but since his gun uses all the air properly in the system, or has a really long barrel or something, his gun shoots 2 joules(just as an example, not actual scientific numbers). Guy knows how to "tech" past the rules, as people do a lot.

Gun B) Shoots 130m/s with 0.2g Berget BB. Player uses BB .30, but since his gun doesnt use the air as efficiently as Gun A, his gat only comes in at 1.6 joules with .30.

This is how you get the problems with people shooting with "hot guns". They technically arent, but in reality one gun can have a much higher impact energy than the other. Wouldnt it be safer to chrono everything in joules then, so that everyone(atleast most people who play fair) are on the same page, and you can clearly see when someone breaks the MED for example.
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Re: Rule Suggestions

Postby Satela » Mon 16 Jan, 2017 10:40

Last year the chroning was a total f*ck up. The BBs used in chroning were 0,25 but just 1 out of the 3 crewmembers understood how to actually use the chrono and how to compare the results to the velocitylimits given for 0,2 BBs. The other 2 crewmembers didn't have a clue of what they were doing.

I strongly support the idea of chroning with players' own BBs and using muzzle-energy limits instead of muzzlevelocity, but first BE has to find people who know how to use chronos to do the chroning...
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