BB weight and joule creep

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Arginj
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BB weight and joule creep

Post by Arginj » 30 Jan 2019, 13:32

One wish and one question regarding BB weight and Joule vs. m/s:

1: Can you please make sure to chrono with the BB weight every player will use while playing, and also update your chrono sheet to include Joule as well? It is flabbergasting that you still chrono with 0,2 g BBs and use m/s instead of Joule. This opens up for Joule creep (especially on the higher levels), which increase the risk of injuries. I know that it will take longer time to chrono if you have to change BB weight on the chronograph, but this can be mitigated by either having different lines for different BB weights or something of the sort.

2: Why don't you allow heavier BBs than 0,3 g for class 1-4 (and 0,43 for higher classes)? I don't see any logic in this at all. If you're trying to minimize the Joule creep effect (going from 0,2 to 0,3 will usually not give huge Joule creeps, even though it is possible, but the difference going from 0,2 to 0,43 can be major) it is fairly simple; just change your chrono sheets/classes to Joule instead of m/s. Then people can chrono (and play) with any BB weight that fits their play style and weapon. For example; player 1 wants to play with 0,25 g BBs - he chrono his gun to 1,64 J which is equivalent to 115 m/s. Another player wants to play with 0,45 g BBs - and she also chrono her gun to 1,64 J which is equivalent to 85,6 m/s. Thus, they would both be placed in class 2 (according to the current classes).
B14: UPIR Mech (Loki)
B15: UPIR Mech (Loki)
B16: UPIR Mech (Eagle 2-3)
B17: GFM Mech (Romeo)
B18: ?

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Arradin
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Re: BB weight and joule creep

Post by Arradin » 30 Jan 2019, 17:04

This is an ongoing discussion within the team, but it is not as easy as people Think - And people will Always cheat if they want to cheat. You can come to chrono with a different BB than what you will actually use etc etc.
You can reach me directly at email: berget@arradin.com

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Windi^
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Re: BB weight and joule creep

Post by Windi^ » 30 Jan 2019, 19:10

Arradin wrote:
30 Jan 2019, 17:04
This is an ongoing discussion within the team, but it is not as easy as people Think - And people will Always cheat if they want to cheat. You can come to chrono with a different BB than what you will actually use etc etc.
But the Joule method is the "industry" standard nowadays. Your system is very old and inaccurate because of reasons mentioned above. This is why you should change the method. People can cheat with the system you use now, cheating is no explanation to use old, very inaccurate system.
B5, FFF Turku-2 Squad leader
B6, SRP Snake 1-0 Platoon leader
B7, SRP Bull 1-0 Platoon leader
B8, Civilian, 6mm merc
B9, UN, 6mm Company, 1st PLT leader
B10, Zanzia, Delta plt, Link officer
B12, Yuri Orlov Mercenaries
B14, NAF HQ Intel S2
B15, NAF HQ Intel S2
B16, UPIR HQ QRF
B17, GFM ODA3

GhostNL
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Re: BB weight and joule creep

Post by GhostNL » 30 Jan 2019, 19:27

Wait what?
Industry standard?
It's still a goddamned big issue to get this regulated.
So I do understand the problems seen by Berget crew.
In the Netherlands its still a hot issue, and they just throw it in you face and push it as an rule without proper motivation.
I do understand the basic idea but I also understand the logistical(at the chrono) nightmare around it.

So please give me some more information to read to understand how ita going in other countries to get the industry standard.

Thanks in advance,
Berget 16 - NAF infantry, squad leader
Berget 17 - TFC infantry, platoon commander.

Arginj
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Re: BB weight and joule creep

Post by Arginj » 30 Jan 2019, 19:43

Arradin wrote:
30 Jan 2019, 17:04
This is an ongoing discussion within the team, but it is not as easy as people Think - And people will Always cheat if they want to cheat. You can come to chrono with a different BB than what you will actually use etc etc.
Cheating is always a risk, there’s no way of mitigating that, not even with your current system. However, assuming that most people will actually play with the same weight that they actually chrono with will make Joule much safer for everyone.
B14: UPIR Mech (Loki)
B15: UPIR Mech (Loki)
B16: UPIR Mech (Eagle 2-3)
B17: GFM Mech (Romeo)
B18: ?

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Windi^
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Re: BB weight and joule creep

Post by Windi^ » 31 Jan 2019, 10:13

GhostNL wrote:
30 Jan 2019, 19:27
Wait what?
Industry standard?
It's still a goddamned big issue to get this regulated.
So I do understand the problems seen by Berget crew.
In the Netherlands its still a hot issue, and they just throw it in you face and push it as an rule without proper motivation.
I do understand the basic idea but I also understand the logistical(at the chrono) nightmare around it.

So please give me some more information to read to understand how ita going in other countries to get the industry standard.

Thanks in advance,
Sorry, don't take it literally. "Industry standard". But due to so many BB weights available, and so many systems (HPA, AEG, Bolt action), due to different hop-up systems (RHop etc), this is the only accurate way to measure the power of the weapon. You should forget the muzzle velocity, but concentrate to the power (Joules) instead. This way you don't have to take the Joule creep in to account.

With the system now in place, this is a really possible scenario:
1. Chrono the gun with 0.2g BB with the old system and get a result
2. Switch to your own BB's that are heavier. This causes the hop-up to work differently and also the Joule creep happens due to heavier BB
3. Get chronoed in the field with different result --> You have different result and might be considered as a cheater. Not cool.
4. You get a safety distance to you gun in the game that is actually not accurate since the gun is really shooting with higher power with the correct BB --> This is a safety issue in this case.
5. Some guns actually shoot like shit due to too low BB weight. A bolt action rifle that shoots equivalent of 180m/s with correct BB might show chrono result of 150m/s with the incorrect 0.2g BB. (The numbers are just an example, but proving the case). This is a real issue.

This method with Joules has been used for several years now, and it's used in many many big events around the Europe. I really don't understand why we are still having this conversation how to do the chronoing properly. There is no loose situation on the user side, only win-win situation with correct results. Cheating is possible with both systems. Only thing that changes is that BE needs to reorganize and rethink how to do the chrono pregame with minimal effort to them and to us, players.
B5, FFF Turku-2 Squad leader
B6, SRP Snake 1-0 Platoon leader
B7, SRP Bull 1-0 Platoon leader
B8, Civilian, 6mm merc
B9, UN, 6mm Company, 1st PLT leader
B10, Zanzia, Delta plt, Link officer
B12, Yuri Orlov Mercenaries
B14, NAF HQ Intel S2
B15, NAF HQ Intel S2
B16, UPIR HQ QRF
B17, GFM ODA3

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Arradin
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Re: BB weight and joule creep

Post by Arradin » 31 Jan 2019, 12:02

Windi^ wrote:
31 Jan 2019, 10:13
Only thing that changes is that BE needs to reorganize and rethink how to do the chrono pregame with minimal effort to them and to us, players.
The issue or discussion is not about if it should be M/S or Joule, it has been up for discussion several times - The issue is that it is NOT as easy as one may Think to change a system that has been used for so many years, and if it works, why change it? With that i mean that there may aswell be a BETTER way to do it (i.e switching to Joule), but the process to update rules and educate EVERYONE in staff about the system, when those people only work with berget stuff those 5 Days during the game is a difficult task and if done wrong can 'break' the entire checkin and chrono process.

So once again, this topic is being discussed (alot) within the team, but its not just to flip a switch.
You can reach me directly at email: berget@arradin.com

Arginj
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Re: BB weight and joule creep

Post by Arginj » 31 Jan 2019, 12:08

May I ask why you only allow up to 0,3 g BBs for class 1-4 weapons? My r-hopped AEG usually require between 0,4-0,45.
B14: UPIR Mech (Loki)
B15: UPIR Mech (Loki)
B16: UPIR Mech (Eagle 2-3)
B17: GFM Mech (Romeo)
B18: ?

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Windi^
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Re: BB weight and joule creep

Post by Windi^ » 31 Jan 2019, 13:31

Arradin wrote:
31 Jan 2019, 12:02
Windi^ wrote:
31 Jan 2019, 10:13
Only thing that changes is that BE needs to reorganize and rethink how to do the chrono pregame with minimal effort to them and to us, players.
Think to change a system that has been used for so many years, and if it works, why change it?
But as I mentioned above, it's NOT working, due to faulty results. Please read the reasoning and dynamics beyond that. Are you really willing to take the risks with for example the safety distances? With your current method the result is that you can have very low safety distance given out in check-in, but when switched to a correct BB, the safety distance should be a lot higher. And if there is accident caused because of this, who is the responsible? The player that didn't brake the rule, but switched to the actual BB weight he/she uses, or BE and your system that gave the faulty distance restriction in the first place? This is a very good example and not hide behind the response that something is difficult.

No need to get angry, but to understand the real risks not switching to the accurate method. If you decide not to do that, I'm fine with it, but at same time you have accepted the risks of accidents happening because of this physical phenomenon.
B5, FFF Turku-2 Squad leader
B6, SRP Snake 1-0 Platoon leader
B7, SRP Bull 1-0 Platoon leader
B8, Civilian, 6mm merc
B9, UN, 6mm Company, 1st PLT leader
B10, Zanzia, Delta plt, Link officer
B12, Yuri Orlov Mercenaries
B14, NAF HQ Intel S2
B15, NAF HQ Intel S2
B16, UPIR HQ QRF
B17, GFM ODA3

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Arradin
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Re: BB weight and joule creep

Post by Arradin » 05 Feb 2019, 17:07

Windi^ wrote:
31 Jan 2019, 13:31
Arradin wrote:
31 Jan 2019, 12:02
Windi^ wrote:
31 Jan 2019, 10:13
Only thing that changes is that BE needs to reorganize and rethink how to do the chrono pregame with minimal effort to them and to us, players.
Think to change a system that has been used for so many years, and if it works, why change it?
But as I mentioned above, it's NOT working, due to faulty results. Please read the reasoning and dynamics beyond that. Are you really willing to take the risks with for example the safety distances? With your current method the result is that you can have very low safety distance given out in check-in, but when switched to a correct BB, the safety distance should be a lot higher. And if there is accident caused because of this, who is the responsible? The player that didn't brake the rule, but switched to the actual BB weight he/she uses, or BE and your system that gave the faulty distance restriction in the first place? This is a very good example and not hide behind the response that something is difficult.

No need to get angry, but to understand the real risks not switching to the accurate method. If you decide not to do that, I'm fine with it, but at same time you have accepted the risks of accidents happening because of this physical phenomenon.
1) There is not a single confirmed injury to date related to incorrect safety distance, its almost exclusivly due to complete disregard of safety distance all together, and this will not change with a move to Joule.

2) As i have stated several times, its not about IF it should be moved to Joule or not, its a matter of how to implement it, which i explained isnt as easy as one may Think, and It is being discussed within the team as we speak.

Other than that, this discussion will not add much more. We will release info as soon as possible if we make the switch to Joule this game, otherwise it will be pushed forward.

Until then, this thread is closed.
You can reach me directly at email: berget@arradin.com

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Arradin
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Re: BB weight and joule creep

Post by Arradin » 13 Mar 2019, 10:03

We got news about the chrono! http://www.berget-events.com/news
You can reach me directly at email: berget@arradin.com

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