Game mechnanics/Balance suggestions for B18

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Windi^
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Game mechnanics/Balance suggestions for B18

Post by Windi^ » 08 Jul 2019, 10:14

Here are my two cents of suggestions for next event. We discussed these already in a smaller group and at least for these would make sense and easy on the balance and distributing the players for the missions and keeping up the morale!

1. Remove the FAD and base based targets all together. Make the bases offgame for whole event (safety glasses mandatory still during the game). Why? Because everyone hates guard duties. This tend to eat the morale and making players leave their guard posts and going rogue. If the other side is already low on morale, these targets doesn't help the situation. If you remove these, all the players can be distributed to the field and missions all the time and after mission/missions they can return to base to rest, eat etc without worrying have to guard FAD or similar location. This would also free all the players to HQ to be used where needed. This would be morale booster for everyone. And lets face it, destroying the FAD or attacking the base doesn't actually achieve anything real in airsoft. Yes, loosing the FAD makes you loose the CPs captured, but usually that is very little problem to start taking those back. FAD is not part of the base, but it's so close to it that attacking FAD basically means attacking the base also.

2. Limit the amount of CPs. Too many makes the game feel just a big capture the flag game. Most of the players uses most of the game taking back the same locations over and over again. Or guarding those. Make CP's only for respawn purposes, not a mission critical things. It's ok that some mission needs you to hold CP for the duration of the mission, but do not add that you need to hold also CP1,2,3. This makes the situation only so that some players are guarding empty CPs only for the sake of the mission. If you put one CP as the mission location, all the players will be there fighting.

3. Bring back the third faction apart of the main factions. Possibly the amount of players in this faction should be 100-200. This way they can't take head on either of the main factions, but they can be used as balancing method. GM's should maybe control if the third faction should assist the red or the blue. This would boost morale for the faction they are supporting and they would be in a numbers so that they would affect the situation in the field. Make them some own missions also but in a way that it wouldn't conflict too much with the main factions. Make the third faction so that either of the main faction is not interested in raiding their base, or maybe make the third faction base offgame all together. Use the third faction mainly for balancing reasons, this can be made with and oporder and ingame deals. Third faction wears own armband, but adds also the armband of the main faction they are supporting at that time (blue/red) to the other arm.

Hope this helps to figure out the future. At least what I saw and understood, the blues would have really needed the number 3 suggestion from my list this year.
B5, FFF Turku-2 Squad leader
B6, SRP Snake 1-0 Platoon leader
B7, SRP Bull 1-0 Platoon leader
B8, Civilian, 6mm merc
B9, UN, 6mm Company, 1st PLT leader
B10, Zanzia, Delta plt, Link officer
B12, Yuri Orlov Mercenaries
B14, NAF HQ Intel S2
B15, NAF HQ Intel S2
B16, UPIR HQ QRF
B17, GFM ODA3

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Re: Game mechnanics/Balance suggestions for B18

Post by Arradin » 08 Jul 2019, 14:43

Windi^ wrote:
08 Jul 2019, 10:14
Here are my two cents of suggestions for next event. We discussed these already in a smaller group and at least for these would make sense and easy on the balance and distributing the players for the missions and keeping up the morale!

1. Remove the FAD and base based targets all together. Make the bases offgame for whole event (safety glasses mandatory still during the game). Why? Because everyone hates guard duties. This tend to eat the morale and making players leave their guard posts and going rogue. If the other side is already low on morale, these targets doesn't help the situation. If you remove these, all the players can be distributed to the field and missions all the time and after mission/missions they can return to base to rest, eat etc without worrying have to guard FAD or similar location. This would also free all the players to HQ to be used where needed. This would be morale booster for everyone. And lets face it, destroying the FAD or attacking the base doesn't actually achieve anything real in airsoft. Yes, loosing the FAD makes you loose the CPs captured, but usually that is very little problem to start taking those back. FAD is not part of the base, but it's so close to it that attacking FAD basically means attacking the base also.

2. Limit the amount of CPs. Too many makes the game feel just a big capture the flag game. Most of the players uses most of the game taking back the same locations over and over again. Or guarding those. Make CP's only for respawn purposes, not a mission critical things. It's ok that some mission needs you to hold CP for the duration of the mission, but do not add that you need to hold also CP1,2,3. This makes the situation only so that some players are guarding empty CPs only for the sake of the mission. If you put one CP as the mission location, all the players will be there fighting.

3. Bring back the third faction apart of the main factions. Possibly the amount of players in this faction should be 100-200. This way they can't take head on either of the main factions, but they can be used as balancing method. GM's should maybe control if the third faction should assist the red or the blue. This would boost morale for the faction they are supporting and they would be in a numbers so that they would affect the situation in the field. Make them some own missions also but in a way that it wouldn't conflict too much with the main factions. Make the third faction so that either of the main faction is not interested in raiding their base, or maybe make the third faction base offgame all together. Use the third faction mainly for balancing reasons, this can be made with and oporder and ingame deals. Third faction wears own armband, but adds also the armband of the main faction they are supporting at that time (blue/red) to the other arm.

Hope this helps to figure out the future. At least what I saw and understood, the blues would have really needed the number 3 suggestion from my list this year.
Thank you for your suggestions!

1) This is very difficult to implement. We took a big step this year to not have any base ojectives which worked well. We do not want to make bases completely off-game because it would mean people would go around without glasses ( No matter whats being said ) , and base attacks would still happen regardless. It would create too much of a safety issue, its better for us to remove the purposes of base attacks. Which we feel we have done.

Regarding the FAD, It is impossible to have it both ways. We put it near base because it makes it easier for large amount of troops to quickly defend it. You say that the problem is that its so Close to base, i dont agree. Having it Close to base make it possible to defend it without having to have actual defenders all the time ( or atleast guards ) . The only real alternative would be to move FAD away from the base, but with the huge perks of taking enemy FAD, then it would be ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL to defend the fad with large Groups of people, and remember as you said, people hate guard duty.
We are very open to ideas, but just moving the FAD away creates more problems.

2) Agreed, this was one of the first things we talked about after this game. Less CPs will put fights in more specific locations, and we can still fill the game area with other stuff, such as this years Point of interrests and random easter eggs. You can Count on it being less CPs next game.

3) Both yes and no. This is not as easy as you may Think, remember we have done this several years with both good and bad results.
In theory its great, but it is extremely hard to make it happen right, and it is dependant on the fact that one team actually needs help.
The basic flaws with the 3d faction are seceral, which is why we didnt include them in Berget 17:
- A third faction takes away players from red/blue, arguably creating an imbalance instead of fixing it.
- What do you do with a 3d team if the two main teams are even? Once again creating an imblance
- Manpower. During B15-16 i personally controlled third team, along with all other civilians. This is not possible, and other things such as general game missions took the hit. Therefor we took away third team and focused more on missions this year.
- ( Most importantly ) A third team take a huge amount of time and effort because in order for it to not create an imbalance, they need to be micromanaged. No player like to be micromanaged. Especially B15 , the Mercenaries(Yellow) team had to be stopped pretty much doing anything they wanted, because blue and red were so even that if yellow sided with any specific team, it would break game balance. This ment that Yellow HQ ofcourse was really dissapointed and angry that they couldnt do what they wanted, they were not even included in the final last big fight.
This is NOT how i want to treat players during any berget Games, but overall game Balance has Always and will Always be main priority when it comes to gameplay.

We also tried last year to balance via tanks. Same issue. They have to be controlled, we have to tell the tanks " You need to go here and do that " , and they dont like that - Would you?
So we moved into drones and mortars and attack helicopters etc this year to balance it with Tools. We cant balance it with people if those people we use as a tool doesnt enjoy the game.

Any suggestions on how to improve such issues i mention are gladly listened to - But keep in mind that alot of these have been tried , and we dont remove things that work well , trust me ;)
You can reach me directly at email: berget@arradin.com

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Re: Game mechnanics/Balance suggestions for B18

Post by Verage » 09 Jul 2019, 07:42

Windi^ wrote:
08 Jul 2019, 10:14
Here are my two cents of suggestions for next event. We discussed these already in a smaller group and at least for these would make sense and easy on the balance and distributing the players for the missions and keeping up the morale!

1. Remove the FAD and base based targets all together. Make the bases offgame for whole event (safety glasses mandatory still during the game). Why? Because everyone hates guard duties. This tend to eat the morale and making players leave their guard posts and going rogue. If the other side is already low on morale, these targets doesn't help the situation. If you remove these, all the players can be distributed to the field and missions all the time and after mission/missions they can return to base to rest, eat etc without worrying have to guard FAD or similar location. This would also free all the players to HQ to be used where needed. This would be morale booster for everyone. And lets face it, destroying the FAD or attacking the base doesn't actually achieve anything real in airsoft. Yes, loosing the FAD makes you loose the CPs captured, but usually that is very little problem to start taking those back. FAD is not part of the base, but it's so close to it that attacking FAD basically means attacking the base also.
The base being on-game most of the time is an aspect that makes berget what it is (for us). The continues possibility of being attacked makes you be on edge. Don't walk away from your weapon, take it with you at all times,... The defence in GFM was almost not existing, so almost no people were at base duty. The FAD being close to the base give the option to players to take there rest there and QRF forces can be deployes very fast. Guarding things is part of a berget events. I think HQ did a very good job on rotating the 'not so fun' jobs.

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Re: Game mechnanics/Balance suggestions for B18

Post by Windi^ » 09 Jul 2019, 08:13

Verage wrote:
09 Jul 2019, 07:42
The base being on-game most of the time is an aspect that makes berget what it is (for us). The continues possibility of being attacked makes you be on edge. Don't walk away from your weapon, take it with you at all times,... The defence in GFM was almost not existing, so almost no people were at base duty. The FAD being close to the base give the option to players to take there rest there and QRF forces can be deployes very fast. Guarding things is part of a berget events. I think HQ did a very good job on rotating the 'not so fun' jobs.
I agree with this on a personal level. But then if we have this situation like this year that the blues are non existing on the field leads to situation that red is attacking their FAD/close base area because no other fighting actually is going on leads the other team even more demoralized and not being able to leave the base. This leads to them not want to play anymore, other reds on the field sitting and waiting for nothing since the enemy can't even get there and so on.

This is why I would at least consider this, or try it out. Make all the gameplay happen in the field, away from base.
B5, FFF Turku-2 Squad leader
B6, SRP Snake 1-0 Platoon leader
B7, SRP Bull 1-0 Platoon leader
B8, Civilian, 6mm merc
B9, UN, 6mm Company, 1st PLT leader
B10, Zanzia, Delta plt, Link officer
B12, Yuri Orlov Mercenaries
B14, NAF HQ Intel S2
B15, NAF HQ Intel S2
B16, UPIR HQ QRF
B17, GFM ODA3

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Re: Game mechnanics/Balance suggestions for B18

Post by Windi^ » 09 Jul 2019, 08:16

Arradin wrote:
08 Jul 2019, 14:43
Thank you for your suggestions!

3) Both yes and no. This is not as easy as you may Think, remember we have done this several years with both good and bad results.
In theory its great, but it is extremely hard to make it happen right, and it is dependant on the fact that one team actually needs help.
The basic flaws with the 3d faction are seceral, which is why we didnt include them in Berget 17:
- A third faction takes away players from red/blue, arguably creating an imbalance instead of fixing it.
- What do you do with a 3d team if the two main teams are even? Once again creating an imblance
- Manpower. During B15-16 i personally controlled third team, along with all other civilians. This is not possible, and other things such as general game missions took the hit. Therefor we took away third team and focused more on missions this year.
- ( Most importantly ) A third team take a huge amount of time and effort because in order for it to not create an imbalance, they need to be micromanaged. No player like to be micromanaged. Especially B15 , the Mercenaries(Yellow) team had to be stopped pretty much doing anything they wanted, because blue and red were so even that if yellow sided with any specific team, it would break game balance. This ment that Yellow HQ ofcourse was really dissapointed and angry that they couldnt do what they wanted, they were not even included in the final last big fight.
This is NOT how i want to treat players during any berget Games, but overall game Balance has Always and will Always be main priority when it comes to gameplay.

We also tried last year to balance via tanks. Same issue. They have to be controlled, we have to tell the tanks " You need to go here and do that " , and they dont like that - Would you?
So we moved into drones and mortars and attack helicopters etc this year to balance it with Tools. We cant balance it with people if those people we use as a tool doesnt enjoy the game.

Any suggestions on how to improve such issues i mention are gladly listened to - But keep in mind that alot of these have been tried , and we dont remove things that work well , trust me ;)
I think this has worked also well in the past. SRP had this function more or less, Zansian black op etc. It has been implemented successfully in the past, so I know it can be done. You just have to figure out to the third faction their own mission, story etc to fulfill meanwhile not used as balancing force.

But as I said, I wanted to throw these ideas in the air. You choose what to do with them if anything.
B5, FFF Turku-2 Squad leader
B6, SRP Snake 1-0 Platoon leader
B7, SRP Bull 1-0 Platoon leader
B8, Civilian, 6mm merc
B9, UN, 6mm Company, 1st PLT leader
B10, Zanzia, Delta plt, Link officer
B12, Yuri Orlov Mercenaries
B14, NAF HQ Intel S2
B15, NAF HQ Intel S2
B16, UPIR HQ QRF
B17, GFM ODA3

Verage
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Re: Game mechnanics/Balance suggestions for B18

Post by Verage » 09 Jul 2019, 10:38

Windi^ wrote:
09 Jul 2019, 08:13
Verage wrote:
09 Jul 2019, 07:42
The base being on-game most of the time is an aspect that makes berget what it is (for us). The continues possibility of being attacked makes you be on edge. Don't walk away from your weapon, take it with you at all times,... The defence in GFM was almost not existing, so almost no people were at base duty. The FAD being close to the base give the option to players to take there rest there and QRF forces can be deployes very fast. Guarding things is part of a berget events. I think HQ did a very good job on rotating the 'not so fun' jobs.
I agree with this on a personal level. But then if we have this situation like this year that the blues are non existing on the field leads to situation that red is attacking their FAD/close base area because no other fighting actually is going on leads the other team even more demoralized and not being able to leave the base. This leads to them not want to play anymore, other reds on the field sitting and waiting for nothing since the enemy can't even get there and so on.

This is why I would at least consider this, or try it out. Make all the gameplay happen in the field, away from base.
I think it's better to, if this unbalance happens, to ristrict the movement of the winning team. This happened this year too. Give TFC some breathing room,give them time to reorganize.

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Re: Game mechnanics/Balance suggestions for B18

Post by mouse » 11 Jul 2019, 18:27

Being a primarily milsim player since 2008 I'd love a mission with a picture of a box and just the mission to find it and bring it too a pickup point without enemy being the wiser.

But I realise someone else would find it looooong before me and my team.

Can I has more Long Range Recon mission(not being "identify HQ"). It seems the "interest points" would have been great things too have static recon on. Maybe give HQ something along the lines too keep eyes on a few of them next year?

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Re: Game mechnanics/Balance suggestions for B18

Post by GhostNL » 12 Jul 2019, 10:49

Verage wrote:
09 Jul 2019, 07:42
Windi^ wrote:
08 Jul 2019, 10:14
Here are my two cents of suggestions for next event. We discussed these already in a smaller group and at least for these would make sense and easy on the balance and distributing the players for the missions and keeping up the morale!

1. Remove the FAD and base based targets all together. Make the bases offgame for whole event (safety glasses mandatory still during the game). Why? Because everyone hates guard duties. This tend to eat the morale and making players leave their guard posts and going rogue. If the other side is already low on morale, these targets doesn't help the situation. If you remove these, all the players can be distributed to the field and missions all the time and after mission/missions they can return to base to rest, eat etc without worrying have to guard FAD or similar location. This would also free all the players to HQ to be used where needed. This would be morale booster for everyone. And lets face it, destroying the FAD or attacking the base doesn't actually achieve anything real in airsoft. Yes, loosing the FAD makes you loose the CPs captured, but usually that is very little problem to start taking those back. FAD is not part of the base, but it's so close to it that attacking FAD basically means attacking the base also.
The base being on-game most of the time is an aspect that makes berget what it is (for us). The continues possibility of being attacked makes you be on edge. Don't walk away from your weapon, take it with you at all times,... The defence in GFM was almost not existing, so almost no people were at base duty. The FAD being close to the base give the option to players to take there rest there and QRF forces can be deployes very fast. Guarding things is part of a berget events. I think HQ did a very good job on rotating the 'not so fun' jobs.
I totally agree with this.
If this element should be skipped I will stop attending Berget. Because it will turn out to be a normal skirm on a big ass playing field.
Nothing else.
Berget 16 - NAF infantry, squad leader
Berget 17 - TFC infantry, platoon commander.

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Re: Game mechnanics/Balance suggestions for B18

Post by Arradin » 12 Jul 2019, 14:37

Bases will continue to be on-game with the exception of last day.
You can reach me directly at email: berget@arradin.com

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Re: Game mechnanics/Balance suggestions for B18

Post by Arradin » 12 Jul 2019, 14:40

mouse wrote:
11 Jul 2019, 18:27
Being a primarily milsim player since 2008 I'd love a mission with a picture of a box and just the mission to find it and bring it too a pickup point without enemy being the wiser.

But I realise someone else would find it looooong before me and my team.

Can I has more Long Range Recon mission(not being "identify HQ"). It seems the "interest points" would have been great things too have static recon on. Maybe give HQ something along the lines too keep eyes on a few of them next year?
We have several of these missions every year, ESPECIALLY during B17. We will also continue to expand on these kind of missions, with GPS trackers which worked excellent this year.

Also had some " A meeting will take Place at XX in 12 hours, observe and assassinate " etc this year, whith .... 'Various' results ;)
You can reach me directly at email: berget@arradin.com

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