NAF C&C after game report - short version

Feedback and debriefings from Berget 10
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jdoe
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Post by jdoe » 08 Jul 2012, 20:59

We had the same mission on Thursday and Friday, Delta platoon tried it like 3 times, during ingame hours, but with only close success. So no points to us from that.

I too am a bit confused about doing this mission during game off, but if it was ordered like this, no matter. I know for sure, you had fun doing it, and that's a small victory to anyone.
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Gravitas
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Post by Gravitas » 08 Jul 2012, 21:14

Tiger_1 wrote:Sabotaged what? During base safe everything in connection with main base could be on the moon for all practical purposes. It does not exists as part of the game. Perhaps NAF players should focus on sleeping during the night also, so we have someone to fight during the day....
In both B9 and B10 I have always been given the information that bases are off-game during the night hours ONLY and exclusively for attacking them. For everything else you can imagine they are still in the game (sabotage, information gathering, sneaking around and drawing a map of it, etc etc).

I am to assume now that this has changed and BE has changed their previous decision on this?
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Post by aidynskas » 08 Jul 2012, 21:36

Gravitas wrote:
Tiger_1 wrote:Sabotaged what? During base safe everything in connection with main base could be on the moon for all practical purposes. It does not exists as part of the game. Perhaps NAF players should focus on sleeping during the night also, so we have someone to fight during the day....
In both B9 and B10 I have always been given the information that bases are off-game during the night hours ONLY and exclusively for attacking them. For everything else you can imagine they are still in the game (sabotage, information gathering, sneaking around and drawing a map of it, etc etc).

I am to assume now that this has changed and BE has changed their previous decision on this?
The precise order given to us was to do the sabotage mission exactly between 3:00-6:00. We were waiting near the PsyOps prison at around 2:00 but didn't enter the base up until 3:00 (who knows, the timing might be important, maybe there are other teams working on some important things too). We were following the orders and it didn't even occur to us that it might be against the rules.

I agree that rules aren't clear about a mission like this. Sabotage mission sounds like an attack to me and yeah Poldavian mech unit woke up to see their cars attacked during the night time. Anyway doing the mission I've had some of the best time in the B10!

I've played Poldavian at B8 and B9 but this year went to NAF 9th Recon unit and I can concur that Poldavian players are more dedicated. I was very surprised to see most of the TPs and SPs held by Poldavians, even the Old Mill! NAF really has to get their fighting spirit up!
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Post by Tiger_1 » 08 Jul 2012, 22:07

you actualy serioulsy need an order from berget to understand that anything you can do in a offgame base during offgame hours has NO value? If you sneak in to my HQ tent when everyone is asleep (no, I dont guard it during night as it is OFF GAME!), and you find information, I would put that at the same level as not taking hits. And if I caught you going through private stuff in a tent after game off I would personaly also call the police, as I would assume the only reason you have to be there is to steal.
I would like someone from Berget and someone from NAF command to explain to me what the H%¤# they are playing around with ordering people into a camp that is OFFGAME to do missions.
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Post by milzins » 08 Jul 2012, 23:03

dont blame us, blame your camp security. these orders has been given by berget GM's. so if you have any complaints please address it to them

specially this "grand warrior" who walked 1m beside me (while i was into center of camp) to pee and returned back to his German tent


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Last edited by milzins on 09 Jul 2012, 06:43, edited 1 time in total.
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Waldo
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Post by Waldo » 08 Jul 2012, 23:24

If it was realy a BE order to sneak into the base between 0300 and 0600 they are ignoring their own rules
Rules Section wrote:Most participants will be sleeping in by crew provided military tents. There will be a 6 hour game-off during night in all base areas (03:00 to 09:00). Keep quiet during these times and respect your sleeping teammates.
Rules Section wrote:It is absolutely prohibited to enter/attack/sneak up to a base during game off.
If they are giving such orders, they would better have informed Tiger, so that the base defense would be prepared.
I mean, in real life, most of us would be confused when our boss came to us and is angry that we didn't work this weekend, when your normal working schedule is from monday to friday, and nobody told you....
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Post by Panzergraf » 08 Jul 2012, 23:37

Look at this "grand warrior" who parked his car 1m behind ours (while we were in the center of the safezone on Wednesday before game start), waiting to have his BAVS fitted. Didn't even occur to him that we were enemies, sucker!
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Mr Black
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Post by Mr Black » 08 Jul 2012, 23:58

Waldo wrote:If it was realy a BE order to sneak into the base between 0300 and 0600 they are ignoring their own rules
... And the rest of his post.

+1
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Post by Kayco » 09 Jul 2012, 00:18

milzins wrote:dont blame us, blame your camp security. these orders has been given by berget GM's. so if you have any complaints please address it to them

specially this "grand warrior" who walked 1m beside me (while i was into center of camp) to take a piss and returned back to his German tent


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Bad!

At same night i droped 3 of my guys near the NAF Base. The approved mission was to find the Code on HQ. My guys went betwenn NAF Base and Zansian Camp during offgame time. Nobody was secured both camps at this time and so my guys waited till 09:00 into a ditch to capture the code and disturb the first NAF-Birds in the morning. Based on the rules, they did nothing during offgame time and now i read from your "official" mission. Thats sucks! I found your little sabotage tag on windshield of my car...fixed with a shewing gum...therefore my breakfirst.
I have no idea, who was the guy on your picture, but at this time you had to come with pink bunny suit to our base and no one had interest on you...
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Post by DutchWolf » 09 Jul 2012, 00:26

As much as I'm loving all the burns, someone should probably point out that this isn't exactly the place to discuss this.

FFS open a new topic or discuss this in private messages / e-mails.

IMHO this should be a discussion between BE-crew, NAF C&C and POL C&C not a public "you suck, no you suck".

But that's just my €0.02

ON TOPIC:
Can't wait to read the full version WhiteAce.
Thanks for a great game all NAF players (and Pollies of course ;))

Also,
Also the succesful outcome of most of our missions gained us enough point, to in the end win the war.
So we won? hehe suck it reds :P :P
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Post by Sgt._Shaw » 09 Jul 2012, 00:44

+1 DutchWolf-

as milzins wrote as he posted the photos: THIS IS FOR FU(%$ SAKE NOT THE RIGHT PLACE TO DISCUSS THAT TOPIC! DAMN IT!
-----------------------------------------------

Thanks for this report WhiteAce. It made some facts clear, that some of us would not have known. I'm sorry to (again) hear from your problems with setting up a proper HQ/C&C. Judge just told me some of it, but what you wrote here sounds incredible. I hope BE just sticks to C&C and improves it (as already discussed in an other topic).

Cheers,

Shaw
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Post by Puma » 09 Jul 2012, 10:18

Waldo wrote:If they are giving such orders, they would better have informed Tiger, so that the base defense would be prepared.
Inform him exactly how? "Uh, we sota decided to change the rules mid game. Hope that's ok, thx bye."
Regardless of whether they inform or not, premeditated changing of existing rules or addition of new ones mid game is never an exiting plot twist. It's just bullshit.

Last year the Zansians had a mission where they had to poison the Poldavian water supply. And in case of a successful poisoning, the Poldavians could not respawn from their base for 2 hours. For what I understand (correct me if I'm wrong) the Poldavians didn't even know that the water supply had a in-game function, and therefor were not really trying to guard it.

Timeboxed objectives. Timeboxed rules. Sort of fits the pattern though. I wonder what they will come up with next.

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Post by Gravitas » 09 Jul 2012, 14:22

Tiger_1 wrote:you actualy serioulsy need an order from berget to understand that anything you can do in a offgame base during offgame hours has NO value? If you sneak in to my HQ tent when everyone is asleep (no, I dont guard it during night as it is OFF GAME!), and you find information, I would put that at the same level as not taking hits. And if I caught you going through private stuff in a tent after game off I would personaly also call the police, as I would assume the only reason you have to be there is to steal.
I would like someone from Berget and someone from NAF command to explain to me what the H%¤# they are playing around with ordering people into a camp that is OFFGAME to do missions.
That sounds entirely sensible - if the rules are clear. And regarding the private stuff; sensible also when the rules are not clear.

However in both B9 and B10 I have specifically received information that bases are off game only from the action of attacking them - and everything else can be done in there during the night. In B9 I specifically received instructions that vehicles can be sabotaged in enemy bases during the off-game (off-attack) hours. I have not heard this being changed or altered. So perhaps it's just a question of different people giving different information when asked about it? The normal unclear misinformation SNAFU?

Another example of misinformation that caused a bit of wasted effort on the NAF side: when asked we were specifically told that no faction can respawn at the Safe Zone at all. The reason for this was also given as twofold: 1) the Safe Zone is an offgame area and respawning is an in-game action, so nobody can respawn there because it would violate this basic rule of having an in-game action in an off-game area. And 2) the Safe Zone can neither be captured nor destroyed by anybody so there can be no respawn there.

In the final battle I had a recon unit out in the field scanning every possible location for a Poldavian field hospital - because obviously Poldavians were respawning somewhere nearby. And our specific instructions excluded the Safe Zone.. so you can imagine our surprise and the feeling of wasted effort when it turned out that Poldavians were indeed respawning at the safe zone - which goes completely against what we were told. Our team had capped Sand Pit, Crossroads and Angel Peak = all blue, specifically because we wanted to strategically cause you to respawn either at a field hospital or at your own base (far away).. and all of that turned out to be a wasted effort due this piece of misinformation..

But it's not that serious. Something like that just happens at Berget and often these things remain at misinformation level even if you reconfirm them from another GM - they just en up confirming the misinformation =) Hard to prevent. Would require much more specific rules with clear example cases written open into the rules to avoid this.

In civil life I am a business man. Most recently I was a chief operating officer of a NASDAQ-OMX listed corporation. And in business I have grown used to the kind of practice followed by many competent lawyers to write contracts and other documents to be very clear. They for example use sentences like "for the avoidance of doubt" and then 2-3 examples follow. Everything with a mathematical formula in contracts is often followed by 2-3 example calculations (different scenarios). Every clause that can be misunderstood is also often followed by 2-3 examples "for the avoidance of doubt". This is a good practice that makes business contracts very clear with real concrete examples in there to help. This same practice could easily be used in BE rules, its just up to the diligence and effort of BE to write them there for things to remain more clear and focused.

Some of the specific cases that would require this kind of examples written in the rules or more clarification could be:

- Vehicle rules in general (many aspects of them)
- Safe Zone respawning
- Off-game hours for bases: entirely off, or off for attacking purposes only?
- specific list of objects of in-game purpose: like the Zanzian "poisoning the water suppy" mission from B9 illustrates.
- rules for taking a hit with no medic around; can the player hit just decide to die instantly (and not bleed out for 10 minutes) thus avoiding possible capture and search by the enemy? is this allowed or not?
- At B10 I saw several Poldavians moving a wounded comrade by holding hands and RUNNING full speed, while I also saw several Zanzians picking up a wounded comdare and carrying him (sometimes all up in the air) with very slow speed. Which one specifically is the correct way to go? examples on this please! Is walking allowed? Crawling?
- Friedly knife kills: if a friendly unit gets totally overrun and they have a high-ranking officer with them with lots of ingame stuff like maps and brief information on notebooks etc. Can the last remaining friendlies knife kill the officer thus making him die and go for respawn immediately, and thus avoiding capture by the enemy? Is this allowed or not? Can you knifekill yourself? Or just decide to die there on the spot?

etc.. there's probably a ton of other stuff that would need examples and clarification as well. That's just the start of it.
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Post by Waldo » 09 Jul 2012, 14:45

Offgame Bases: In the sleeping section of the rules it is clearly written - and as I recall this didn't change since last year -
Rules wrote:It is absolutely prohibited to enter/attack/sneak up to a base during game off.
Poisioning Water: Many Poldavians didn't react, because many of us - me included - were never told until game off that the water supply was a target of sabotage.

Hit with no medic: Normaly you have to lay down for 10 minutes until you blead out. In my oppinion it is not that gentleman-like to choose to go offgame before that (remember that you are allways allowed to go offgame, but you have to proceed to respawn to get ingame again; exception: Search and offgame notes or emergencies and stuff like that)

Moving while hit: At the moment this is not precisely clear how to handle this matter. It is only said that the hit player has to be supported by another player, so nothing is said about touching or carrying explicitly. BE has to make this clearer in their next rules update; so neither the zansians nor the Pollies that you saw infringed rules.

Knifekilling friendlies: Same as friendly fire....every hit counts, no matter who shot. Knifekilling yourself would be simply going offgame.


About the cars: I am glad that BE updated the rules to the better this year. The next urgent update would be the BAVS system which failed big time this year
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Post by Tiger_1 » 09 Jul 2012, 15:40

The respawn problem for last battle was something berget found out at the last minute it seems, the information on safe zone being a spawn was called to me on the phone as we moved up the hill to village, and that we could use the church turned up even later and I have no idea where that came from. Not sure all poldavians knew that either of the places where used during the final battle.

I know the problem with berget information flow, and I am not going at the guys doing the mission here (except the "look at the cool pic" part, that got all this started in the first place). But I am hoping someone from NAF command and berget game masters reads this thread and sorts out what is fact and not regarding missions given.
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